Case 8369

[SamM]

Trying to find more info on this Case 8369. The smaller blade and file have 'Case XX Tested' in a circle which places it in the 1914-1920 range according to the Case website. The main blade is stamped 'Case Bradford PA' with Bradford below Case and PA below Bradford and 8369 on the reverse tang. I tried getting enough detail to have it show in the picture, but I wasn't able to. In any case, that stamp puts it in the 1905-1920 range. The case website doesn't return anything for '8369' and the web has failed me.

The knife has some condition issues, the MOP is cracked in two places on one side but all in all, the blades are in good condition for it's age and walk and talk quite well and the bolsters are striking.

Any information at all would be greatly appreciated!

[msteele6]

Nice!

[Mumbleypeg]

Case Bradford stamping dates from 1914-1919. W.R.Case & Sons acquired the rights to the Case Tested XX copyright and changed the stamp to Case Bradford in 1914, per Sargent's American Premium Guide to Knives and Razors, (7th Edition). Furthermore he says that during the early part of this period Case Tested XX appeared on the rear of the tang of the main blade. In the latter part of the period the most common form was the words Case Tested XX inside a circle on one of the secondary blades.

I think you have a rare knife. I don't see an 8369, or other 3 inch congress 3-blade Whittler from the Case Bradford era in Sargent's, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. There are pictures of two W.R. Case & Sons 6369 congress whittlers but they are shown as 3-5/16 inch knives. There's also two pictures of Case Bradford 6269 congress knives, shown to be 3 inches long. Based on your knife it looks like a 3-blade whittler version must also have been made. By the Tested XX era the 69 pattern looks like it was a 3 inch "small congress", but only in a 2-blade version. My guess/conclusion is, during the Bradford era the 69 pattern was changed to 3 inch length and continued as such into the future.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge (or other reference books ) will be able to provide better info.

Ken

[SamM]

Thank you again!

Two things struck me as interesting about this knife - it's not a uniform width, it tapers down to the sheepsfoot blade that uses both end springs. The second is that the file and it's tang aren't one piece, the file is fitted to a slot in the tang.

BTW, Does anyone have advice on uploading hi-res pictures? I'm using 8 and 13MP cameras but the resolution doesn't carry over to the posted picture.

[knifeaholic]

WOW!! That is a rare bird!! Definitely the real deal. Case made whittler versions of many small patterns, but that is the first that I have seen in the 69 pattern.

[SamM]

WOW!! That is a rare bird!! Definitely the real deal. Case made whittler versions of many small patterns, but that is the first that I have seen in the 69 pattern.

Should I be concerned about the mixed tang stamps?

Edit - Should I consider having the handle repaired or leave it as-is?

[msteele6]

Two things, first, the way the knife tapers is one of the hallmarks of the whittler pattern. A whittler almost always has one blade that sits on two springs and then, two blades in the other end that ride on one spring each. Second, the mixed tang stamps are typical of older Case knives (pre-Tested) although some of the Tested era knives do have mixed stamps.

Don't remember any Case knives with the unusual file construction.

[wlf]

WOW!! That is a rare bird!! Definitely the real deal. Case made whittler versions of many small patterns, but that is the first that I have seen in the 69 pattern.

Should I be concerned about the mixed tang stamps?

Edit - Should I consider having the handle repaired or leave it as-is?

I believe Steve is the leading authority on Case knives we have.If he says it is the real deal,he knows,and is not guessing.Read his signature below his post.His opinions are valued.

[SamM]

Thanks, I noticed his signature when I read his post.

In any case (pun intended), considering this forum has a very popular section dedicated exclusively to counterfeits, it's prudent to ask questions, particularly when something never seen before shows up.

[msteele6]

The Case 8369 actually IS listed in Sargent's Third Edition on about page 155 (don't have my book with me). It's listed in about three or four pages of pattern numbers for which there aren't any pictures.

It would really be interesting to see some more close ups of the file construction. I'm not sure I've seen one with that particular method of construction although I have certainly seen some files made with more than one piece construction.

[SamM]

The Case 8369 actually IS listed in Sargent's Third Edition on about page 155 (don't have my book with me). It's listed in about three or four pages of pattern numbers for which there aren't any pictures.

It would really be interesting to see some more close ups of the file construction. I'm not sure I've seen one with that particular method of construction although I have certainly seen some files made with more than one piece construction.

I'll play around with lighting and distances to get a better shot of the file construction. Won't have anything up until this evening though, work gets fussy when I play with knives in front of clients.

[SamM]

Hopefully these are better pics of the file construction. You'll notice the tang is higher on one side than the other.

[Mumbleypeg]

Most interesting construction. Any thoughts on why Case made the file blade in this manner?

Ken

[SamM]

Is it possible Case had leftover files from a different pattern and they used shims to adapt it to this one?

The file is kept in place by the pin and a small weld. Of course, I don't think it would be prudent to take it apart, but it would be interesting to see if the file had a stamp under the tang.

[msteele6]

Do you notice any appreciable difference in the way the file opens and closes as compared to the way the other blades feel? Does it snap open and closed like the other blades? Does it have extra wiggle when open?How about the position of the spring that the file rides on, is it way up or down in the open half-stop or closed position? How about the patina on the file as opposed to the backspring and the other blades, any appreciable difference?

Does anything make you suspicious that the file is a replacement? The reason I ask is that I personally have never seen a file constructed in this manner, however, my experience in Case knives (or any other) of this age is limited to a relatively few examples. Also, it would be wise to carefully examine the stamping on the file to search for any abnormalities.

If Case obtained their files from another source (or even if they made their own but made them in a standard thickness), they might have to make some modification to make them fit, however, this doesn't seem to me to be the easiest modification, the only other multi-piece files that I have seen are two pieces, not three.

It would be informative for any collectors out there to weigh in if they have any comparable (or anti-comparable, if that's a word) examples.

[SamM]

Do you notice any appreciable difference in the way the file opens and closes as compared to the way the other blades feel? Does it snap open and closed like the other blades? Does it have extra wiggle when open?How about the position of the spring that the file rides on, is it way up or down in the open half-stop or closed position? How about the patina on the file as opposed to the backspring and the other blades, any appreciable difference?

Does anything make you suspicious that the file is a replacement? The reason I ask is that I personally have never seen a file constructed in this manner, however, my experience in Case knives (or any other) of this age is limited to a relatively few examples. Also, it would be wise to carefully examine the stamping on the file to search for any abnormalities.

If Case obtained their files from another source (or even if they made their own but made them in a standard thickness), they might have to make some modification to make them fit, however, this doesn't seem to me to be the easiest modification, the only other multi-piece files that I have seen are two pieces, not three.

It would be informative for any collectors out there to weigh in if they have any comparable (or anti-comparable, if that's a word) examples.

The file has the same snap as the small pen blade opposite it. The half-stop feels identical on both (light) . None of the blades have any wobble. The file spring is flush when closed, exactly as the pen spring is. The file spring is ever-so-slightly recessed when the file is out. The unserrated tip of the file matches the patina of the other blades, the file itself is a uniform dark gray/black.

If the file had been shimmed on only one side, it would contact either the liner or the main blade, or at least have very little margin for error.

The file shim has the circled Case stamp, I would think it would be quite a challenge to create two shims to bookend the file so it functioned correctly.

The shims are so well matched to the file shape at first I didn't realize I was looking at three pieces.

[Mumbleypeg]

Just my opinion but I believe the knife was made that way at the factory. The question is, why? And if Case made it that way, as many Tested or earlier knives Case made with file blades, surely someone has seen one like this before. To get exposure to a broader audience than those of us who regularly read the Case Collectors forum, maybe you should post the pictures and question regarding the file blade construction in the Knife Related Q&A forum.

Ken

[msteele6]

M'peg,

That is an excellent suggestion. The only thing I can think of is that Case bought the file from another source (file making is, as I understand it, a fairly specialized skill) and that the thickness had to be adjusted to fit.

As you say, this can't be the only example, if it is original.

m

[knifeaholic]

It was common for Case file blades, even into the XX era, to be made in two pieces, the "shim" piece at the tang with the long file blade pinned on to the tang piece. I do not have an example in hand to look at. If you have my book see page 33 for the 6279 F SS pattern, its hard to see it though.

[Mumbleypeg]

Steve, thanks for the info. Any thoughts as to what the reason was for doing it that way, as opposed to a one piece blade?

Ken

[Dinadan]

Great thread. Thanks for posting this very interesting knife, SamM. I learned a couple of things here!

[knifeaholic]

Steve, thanks for the info. Any thoughts as to what the reason was for doing it that way, as opposed to a one piece blade?

Ken

Ken;

I can speculate on a few reasons.

The file blade is a different animal as compared to a cutting blade, requiring a different manufacturing process. It may be that the tang needed to be stamped and heat treated as a separate piece like a regular blade, then have the file attached to it since it would not be feasible to make the blade as one piece.

Especially since the long files on the older knives were intended to be flexible files so that they performed better as nail files.

[Mumbleypeg]

Thanks Steve. Makes sense. A similar thought occurred to me but I discounted it. In Case's current manufacturing process, after tempering the blades they re-heat just the tang portion of the blade to "de-temper" it. This gives the tang the same hardness as the backspring, thus preventing excessive wear that would result from two metals of differing hardness rubbing against one another. Initial thought was perhaps due to hardness of the file blade metal they used the two piece method on the file blades to accomplish the same thing. Decided if they could accomplish it by re-heating the tang, why bother with a welded two-piece blade?

Ken