Four Blades? Stockman?

[Paladin]

Guys,
My question is, when a knife I would usually call a stockman has a fourth blade, is it still a stockman? It is laid out somewhat like a whittler but with a 4th blade. A little sleeveboard to it.
Ideas?

Ray

[edgy46]

My opinion for what it's worth. I think it is still a stockman.

[FRJ]

That's a good looking knife, Ray.

Without a spey I don't see it as a Stockman.
It would be a good packer though.

[Steve Warden]

My opinion, more whittler than stockman.

[Paladin]

Thanks for the input, guys. It looks like a coin toss to me. I appreciate your help.

Ray

[Mumbleypeg]

To my thinking any true stockman pattern has a spay blade. JMO

Ken

[ea42]

That's such a unique setup I don't think you can pigeon hole it into any existing pattern. Looks more like a trapper pattern or a slim serpentine jack (Schrade's description of the trapper pattern minus the spey blade) with two additional blades popped into the butt end. The addition of the little hawkbill would seem to make it more a farmer's knife.

Eric

[just bob]

Must be called the four-master whittler stockman?


https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... d-74779966

https://iknifecollector.com/forum/topic ... -questions

https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... ife-c-1977

[btrwtr]

Stockman knives can have 3 or more blades. Yes. It is a stockman. It is not a whittler.

[just bob]

Stockman knives can have 3 or more blades. Yes. It is a stockman. It is not a whittler.

Does a stockman have to have a spay blade? What is the difference between a spay blade and a spey blade? This is from the Buck website.

https://www.buckknives.com/blog/knife-k ... de-shapes/

SPEY BLADE

As the name indicates, this blade was originally developed to neuter farm animals. A rather blunt point avoids poking through a surface by accident, and the overall blade con­figuration makes the spey function well suited for skin­ning and sweeping knife strokes.

[Mumbleypeg]

FWIW, for some reason my spell checker software doesn't like spey. If I type spey, it changes it to spay (it doesn't like "swedge" either, changes it to "swage").

Out of curiosity I went to dictionary.com.

It says spay means "to neuter". It says "spey" is a river in Scotland! (That was a new one on me.) I've seen both spellings used in cutlery terminology.

Regarding a stockman pattern needing to have a spay (or spey) blade, that's just my opinion. However FWIW Levine's Guide agrees with that. IIRC that section was authored by Pete Cohen.

Ken

[Paladin]

Must be called the four-master whittler stockman?


https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... d-74779966

https://iknifecollector.com/forum/topic ... -questions

https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... ife-c-1977

Guys,
I think I will go with the Four-Master Stockman. If anyone would know, it would be Steve Sanders.
Thanks to all who participated here.

Ray

[Paladin]

FWIW, for some reason my spell checker software doesn't like spey. If I type spey, it changes it to spay (it doesn't like "swedge" either, changes it to "swage").

Out of curiosity I went to dictionary.com.

It says spay means "to neuter". It says "spey" is a river in Scotland! (That was a new one on me.) I've seen both spellings used in cutlery terminology.

Regarding a stockman pattern needing to have a spay (or spey) blade, that's just my opinion. However FWIW Levine's Guide agrees with that. IIRC that section was authored by Pete Cohen.

Ken

Quite a while back, Mark Zaleski has an article in either Knife World or Knife Magazine debating with himself as to the spelling of spey. He concluded that he was going with the 'spey' spelling and I go along with that.

Ray

[Mumbleypeg]

I’ll not disagree with either spelling, spay, or spey. As for whether or not it’s a stockman, some knives can be identified solely by the frame shape - “canoe”, for example. Others by the configuration of the blades, “whittlers” come in several different frame shapes, and different blade combinations. But the generally accepted definition is having a master blade on one end that when closed falls between two blades on the opposite end. (Yes I know some contrarians will insist the Camillus 72 is a “whittler” because the maker says so. ). Based on those features, those knives are fairly recognizable.

In some case however, it is also important to consider the pattern’s intended use. Stockman knives evolved from cattle knives, and were made for working “stock”, that is, animals like cattle, sheep, hogs, etc. Levine’s Guide says:

The master blade of a stock knife is always some type of clip-point. The second blade is usually a spey, for castrating young animals or for skinning. The remaining blade or blades can be a pen, a sheepfoot, or a harness punch.

The article containing the above quote is followed by 3-1/2 pages with pictures of examples of stock knives and Junior stock knives. Depicted are 28 knives by various makers, having three, four, and five blades. And every one of them has a clip and a spey.

In the end it’s subjective. Call it what you wish, it’s a unique blade configuration for sure. And most seeing it will not know or care if it’s a “stockman”.

Ken

[bighomer]

I growed up calling it a flesh blade, a trappers got one for skinning game and a stockman got one for castrating hogs and cattle.that my story and I'm sticking to. Op knife is is a four bladed double end bastard jack imho. I'd tote it but it ain't exactly my cup of tea. .

[btrwtr]

Stockman knives can have 3 or more blades. Yes. It is a stockman. It is not a whittler.

Does a stockman have to have a spay blade? What is the difference between a spay blade and a spey blade? This is from the Buck website.

https://www.buckknives.com/blog/knife-k ... de-shapes/

SPEY BLADE

As the name indicates, this blade was originally developed to neuter farm animals. A rather blunt point avoids poking through a surface by accident, and the overall blade con­figuration makes the spey function well suited for skin­ning and sweeping knife strokes.

No, I don't think that a spay blade is needed to classify as a stockman pattern. Many have the combination of clip master, pen and sheepsfoot but those blades aren't necessary either.

[Dinadan]

I would say definitely not a stockman. Most stockman knives have three blades: a clip, sheepsfoot, and spey blade. That knife has four blades with no sheepsfoot or spey. Just too far outside the norm to call it a stockman. I have never seen one like it.

[just bob]

I growed up calling it a flesh blade, a trappers got one for skinning game and a stockman got one for castrating hogs and cattle.that my story and I'm sticking to. Op knife is is a four bladed double end bastard jack imho. I'd tote it but it ain't exactly my cup of tea. .

I worked on a farm throughout high school. Hay baling, cleaning farrowing crates, and piglet castration seemed to be the most common jobs I was asked to help with. The 2 brothers that operated the farm both carried Barlow knives. I'm thinking now maybe Camillus or Ulster but am not certain. No matter if the task was cutting baling twine or castration the Barlow knife was used. They kept those pen blades razor sharp, and I never saw them use any other knives. I don't recall ever seeing a knife with a spey blade until much later on. They used a bander on cattle and there were no sheep or other animals on the farm. Pretty sure if you had offered either of them a stockman knife, they would have laughed at you and told you they had no use for it. Also, pretty sure the guy they called the mechanic also carried a Barlow knife. Much later on I went to an actual hog butchering and recall that they used a heavy fixed blade knife, much like a butcher knife. Even back then Case knives were too pricey to carry and risk losing or damaging. Maybe they used them on larger farming operations?

[just bob]

"No, I don't think that a spay blade is needed to classify as a stockman pattern. Many have the combination of clip master, pen and sheepsfoot but those blades aren't necessary either.
[/quote]


Thank you, Wayne. I also took the time to dig out Steve's book and read the information and variations on the 6333 through the 64047 patterns. Thankfully we have truly knowledgeable people to provide accurate information to collectors.

[Mumbleypeg]

It’s such a real shame that Levine’s Guide to Knives doesn’t know what a stockman pattern is. Thank goodness no one thinks that book is of any value.

And to think they even put spey blades on veterinary knives - the very idea! What were they thinking!??:lol:

I refer you to the long-running "Old Stockman Knives" thread. Starting at the beginning, you'll need to look hard to find any not having a spay (or spey) as one of the blades. Enjoy!
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kn ... hp?t=49997

Carry on.

Ken

[Reverand]

I would still call it a 4-blade Stockman.
Page 290 of Levine's 4th edition he shows a 4-bladed Stock knife (that of course has a spey blade):

4-blade Stock knife

But then he shows a 4-blade Cattle knife on page 286 that does NOT have a spey blade:

4-blade Cattle with no spey

And, since we don't have a better name for it, I vote for "4 Bladed Stockman".

[FRJ]

Here's a fine old four blade Stockman.

[knife7knut]

And a couple more.

[FRJ]

Nice knives, Ray.