Trying to date these KK knives

[cottage hill bill]

I realize they look like one is smaller, but both knives are the same size. They are copies of the British 6353/1905 military issue knife. I'm trying to find out when these were made. The lower one is branded on the scale "Balloon Div. 29" on the other side "No. 29" Any help greatly appreciated.

[ea42]

Wow that's the first knife I've seen that referenced the balloon corps, VERY cool!! I'd say both of them date to the WWI era.

Eric

[ea42]

A quick search finds that the 9th Balloon Company normally supported the 29th division during the war, but the 4th Balloon Company was assigned to the 29th Division at Cumieres, France in 1918. Those were some nasty times.


https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA955198.pdf

https://ia800304.us.archive.org/1/items ... utc_bw.pdf


Eric

[Gunsil]

The Balloon word is stamped in with individual stamps, not likely done by any government agency. Mighty suspicious.

[cottage hill bill]

Actually not at all unusual for first war items to be stamped one letter at a time, in fact much more common than a large single stamp. Been collecting militaria with emphasis on WWI for 50+ years. As far as I know the US didn't have an issue folding knife in WWI. The British did as did the Canadians. The Canadians contracted with Camillus and Schatt & Morgan for versions of their issue knife but no evidence of a contract with KK. I am aware of another, with the spear point tin opener (like the top knife in my photo) that may be stamped RAF although the lettering is damaged and difficult to read.

[ea42]

The Balloon word is stamped in with individual stamps, not likely done by any government agency. Mighty suspicious.

Gene, at first I thought so too but in my search for info I came across another knife with the same wording in the handle on another forum. Also a Keen Kutter with the same odd tin opener:

By the way did you guys know that a million dollar shipment of similar WWI issue army knives made at the Walden Knife Co/Keen Kutter shop was lost when the Lusitania sank in 1915? They and a number of other knife companies had to scramble to re-make the order after that tragedy. I've got a copy of a newspaper article pertaining to that somewhere here, but while I try to find it here's an old headline:

Eric

[cottage hill bill]

ea42 - would you mind posting a link to that other forum? I haven't had any luck in identifying Balloon Division 29. In a military knives FB group where we're looking at these is another KK with the spear point tin opener with a Canadian government mark on the spike. Canadian WWI issue knives in my collection are marked on the spike with the Canadian government property mark like the one on this Camillus. I have extracts of Canadian contracts with Camillus and Schatt & Morgan but nothing indicating Simmons was a supplier.

[ea42]

Absolutely! Here you go, this is the link to the post pertaining to that knife. The post by 4thGordons (3rd down) is where I gleaned the info on the 29th Division. Not much other info there but they do mention the Canadian mark, same picture too:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/259 ... -balloons/

Eric

[cottage hill bill]

Ok, that's my knife on the WWI forum, same one pictured above. I made that post when I first got the knife. As I told Chris (4th Gordons) at the time, I'm not sure the 29th Division identity works. Balloon Div No.29 is not the normal format for an American unit name and the balloon units were organized as wings and squadrons. Some other things that argue against it being used by an American unit are: the US Army didn't issue a clasp knife in WWI (to the best of my knowledge), it is very much the same size and design as the British/Canadian issue knife from 1905 to 1938, I have now seen one other KK with the Canadian property mark on the spike. I'm going back to the WWI forum and check with the War in the Air group and see if I can identify the unit, maybe I can back track the origin of the knives that way.

[Gunsil]

Actually not at all unusual for first war items to be stamped one letter at a time, in fact much more common than a large single stamp. Been collecting militaria with emphasis on WWI for 50+ years. As far as I know the US didn't have an issue folding knife in WWI. The British did as did the Canadians. The Canadians contracted with Camillus and Schatt & Morgan for versions of their issue knife but no evidence of a contract with KK. I am aware of another, with the spear point tin opener (like the top knife in my photo) that may be stamped RAF although the lettering is damaged and difficult to read.

Well, the navy certainly had issued folding knives during the first WW and so did the signal corps. Infantry did not get any until WW2. I stand by my statement that the words have been added to the knife at a later date, likely done to deceive prospective buyers. Individual letter made marks are just plain not good. There are such things as balloonist knives but they are fixed blades.

[cottage hill bill]

Gunsil - First, I don't think these knives were used/issued to US troops, I believe they were used by either British, or more likely Canadian troops most probably during WWI. Your assumption that a marking should be made by a one-piece multi letter stamp is just not correct for this time period. The only multi-letter stamps I've seen on equipment are the markings that are roll stamped at the time of manufacture such as the maker's name or model number. This is especially true of British and Commonwealth equipment. Every unit marking I've ever seen on British equipment including rifles, bayonets, swords and knives have been single letter stamps.

The top two knives are Boer War period showing a soldier's service number on the top one, service number and unit (Royal Garrison Artillery) on the second. The bottom one is a Royal Navy issue Admiralty Pattern 301 knife with a service number and unidentified characters. All were clearly done one letter at a time.

This unit mark on a Webley revolver was also done single letter.

This is a US dog tag.

This is the US issue stamp set for making dog tags and marking a soldier's knife, fork and spoon set with his number. All done one stamp at a time.

The block in the center of the set is the anvil. The sheet metal guides attach to the anvil to guide the stamps but from the dog tags I've seen they guides were frequently ignored.
It is really hard to realize how much more of an artisan world it was 100+ years ago. Many more things were done by hand and were much less standardized and much less polished than we are used to today. Based on 50+ years of collecting British/Commonwealth militaria and handling/studying many, many knives like this one I have no doubt that the markings on the scale were applied at the time the knife was in use and by the unit that was using it.

[1fartsmella]

Here's a Press Button folding Balloonist knife from WW1 www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_foru ... es#p781698

[cottage hill bill]

I'm not advocating that this is a "balloonist's" knife, simply that it was a knife used by someone in a balloon unit. The problem is identifying if that unit is British, Canadian or American.