Manufacturing Flaws: How Much Is Too Much?

[bigshot]

I recently took a chance and bought a Chinese Rough Ryder Reserve. I've never bought a Chinese knife before because the cheap prices made me think they were cheap knifes. But the RRR002 Kayak convinced me. It's as well made as any knife I own. So I got online this week and ordered up a couple of large batches of them to see what they were all about.

I've been looking at the youtube videos reviewing inexpensive Chinese knives and it's clear that $12 knives aren't always perfect. There are slight manufacturing boo boos that creep in once in a while, and as long as they don't affect the usability and aren't too egregious, I can overlook that. I'm curious where other collectors draw the line where it becomes too much. The definition of a problem that you wouldn't put up with is one that you would initiate a return with the retailer to correct.

Here is a poll related to problems. Let me know what is a deal breaker for you. Let me know if I missed any problems that you've encountered.

[beresman]

My experience with Rough Riders has always been good. Other brands have been less than stellar, in my experience, but I have only had a few. All the various Frost permutations may look nice at first glance, but most of them aren't as good.

[1967redrider]

I chose small gaps, big gaps, blade wobble and no snap as my deal breakers. Can't these 10 year olds do better than that???

[gsmith7158]

I chose small gaps, big gaps, blade wobble and no snap as my deal breakers. Can't these 10 year olds do better than that???

You hit the nail on the head Red. No Chinese knives for me.

[Rdubya21]

I gotten some very well made China knives . I ve also gotten some very poorly made in USA knives. But I still will buy both if QC is good .

[bigshot]

I chose small gaps, big gaps, blade wobble and no snap as my deal breakers. Can't these 10 year olds do better than that???

I can see the last three, but what problem does a tiny gap cause? That isn't uncommon on American knives, especially ones with stag handles.

[1967redrider]

I chose small gaps, big gaps, blade wobble and no snap as my deal breakers. Can't these 10 year olds do better than that???

I can see the last three, but what problem does a tiny gap cause? That isn't uncommon on American knives, especially ones with stag handles.

I have my standards.

[bigshot]

I have my standards.

Ah. I thought it might have some impact on the functionality of the knife. I totally understand if it's an OCD thing.

[marinaio61]

I bought one RR knife to see what the glowing praise was all about. I got a high carbon steel, G-10 handled Canoe and it was the worst collection of manufacturing garbage and obvious lack of any QC in any knife I have ever owned. I will never buy another RR, they had their chance and blew it not to mention recent events that make them a political pariah to me.

[Miller Bro's]

If a new knife costs under $20 you should not have any complaints, you get what you pay for!

Personally I consider an under $20 knife a throw away, just like a cheap China made paint brush. I don't complain about the bristles coming out I use it then throw it away, now a Purdy brush I take real good care of

[bigshot]

I just got in three orders from my China made knife test. This batch was mostly higher end Chinese knives- Rough Ryder Reserves. I have a batch of $10 to $15 knives and some carbon steel examples coming next week. Here is the quality score so far:

Marbles Dave Canterbury Scout King Pocketknife: $19.99 GRADE: C+
Slight gap in the springs. Some weird design issues: Hard to get to the nail nick on the pen blade.
Can opener has a very long beak and isn't sharpened. The reamer is dull too. Not terribly impressed.

Rough Ryder Brown Stag Bone Jumbo Stockman: $14.99 GRADE B+
Slight gap in the springs. Initially the main blade didn't snap shut, but after oiling, it works fine.

Rough Ryder Buckshot Bone Copperhead: $14.99 GRADE A
Perfect- A really nice knife. I'm ordering more from this series. This is a drop dead bargain for the price.

Rough Ryder Stockman VG-10 (qty 2 Christmas gifts): $19.54 GRADE A-
Perfect- Nice blades and style. But the knives are covered with oil and black grit. Why so grimy?
I will need to clean and lube these before wrapping them for Christmas. If it was cleaner, it would be an A.

Rough Ryder Reserve Swell Center Whittler D2 Black: $49.99 GRADE A-
Perfect- Large knife. Beautiful BIG main blade. The secondary blades are tiny in comparison.
One design issue... The nail nicks on the coping and pen blades are partially obstructed by the swell center.
The secondary blades let this one down a little.

Rough Ryder Reserve Easy Open Sway Back Tan: $30.48 GRADE A+
Perfect- Really nice blade. Gorgeous micarta. This one is a gem.
I would really like a larger version of this.

Rough Ryder Reserve Hedgehog D2 Black Micarta: $43.64 GRADE A+
Perfect- Sweet knife. Not too big, not too small. Perfect every day carry knife.

Rough Ryder Reserve Common Stock D2 Black Micarta: $51.69 GRADE A+
Perfect- This is just as good as my favorite large Stockman, the Buck 307
Nope. It is better than the Buck. Bigger main blade, half stop, nicer looking handles.

Rough Ryder Reserve Kayak D2 Black Micarta: $75.00 (secondary market) GRADE A+
Perfect- The natural color micarta is beautiful. This is a very nice large knife.

The only knife here that I'm really not happy with is the Marble's Scout Knife. I emailed SMKW to ask if the unsharpened blades are supposed to be that way. I remember the Camillus Cub Scout knife I had as a kid had a sharpened can opener blade and reamer. I may try the Rough Ryder Carbon Steel II Scout Knife and see if that is any better.

All of the rest stand up quality-wise with my USA made knives. None of these are throw aways by any stretch of the imagination. If I had to point to a difference, the China made ones knives to be built a little heavier- bigger, thicker blades, thicker knives. I actually prefer that myself. I like knives that you can use without worrying about, not fancy colorful shiny ones that you're afraid you might damage.

[kootenay joe]

I bought one RR knife to see what the glowing praise was all about. I got a high carbon steel, G-10 handled Canoe and it was the worst collection of manufacturing garbage and obvious lack of any QC in any knife I have ever owned. I will never buy another RR, they had their chance and blew it not to mention recent events that make them a political pariah to me.

I have over 200 RR knives and not even one has a significant issue. All have good snap, zero blade play and super sharp blades. Most were bought from 2007 to about 2016. I have used a couple of them to field dress deer and they slice better than my $500+ customs.
kj

[PigStikr]

I have a big pile of RR's I started buying early 2K years...I don't buy much China made now the RRR's are junk compared to knives I bought for less than $5.00 20 years ago if that knife won't open it goes into the drawer of shame...I might try RRR one more time but they ain't made buy the same plant the older ones were made at...they got cool looking grinds on the blades now but that don't mean crap if you can't open or close them without a problem...and they got that stupid looking R on bolsters..QC on RR's has gone south they spend more time on the look these days than the function that's the same reason I quit buying Case knives 30+ years ago

[bigshot]

Well you have to admit, if knife makers didn't focus on looks but instead purely focused on function, there would be a lot less knives out there to choose from. The average collector could buy a dozen knives and be done. When I was a kid buying Bucks there were just a few patterns to choose from and they all had black handles. That worked for the 1960s, but it really doesn't work today.

The way I look at it, the important thing isn't the color of the handles, it's the patterns. That's where the variety is. I don't know any knife manufacturer who has a larger variety of patterns in production at any given time than Rough Ryder. I was watching a video on YouTube last night where a guy was showing two trappers combined at the back spring like siamese twins and a long thin knife that looked like a large pencil. I had no idea Rough Ryder made anything like that. I keep finding new patterns all the time. The number of patterns is directly related to the function. Rough Ryder seems to be focused on that.

Are there any other budget priced knife manufacturers that you like better than Rough Ryder?

If you haven't bought Rough Ryders in twenty years, that might be why you have a bad impression of them. Chinese steel and knife making has improved tremendously in the past five years. In the culinary knife market, high end Japanese knife makers have started working with China, training them on Japanese standards. Of course a lot of Chinese knives are cheap crap, but there are more and more higher quality ones. The German chef's knife makers are becoming worried, just like the lower level American pocket knife makers are.

Competition is good. Buck would never have gotten out of its rut if there weren't other companies making things the public wanted that Buck wasn't making. The Rough Ryder Reserves are definitely in the same league as the better American knife brands now. In fact, they might be a little bit better. By the way, the Reserve models aren't made at the same plant as the regular ones and they don't have Rs on the bolsters. The reserves are spurring the old plant to up their game. More recent regular Rough Ryders look better than a few years ago too.

[cody6268]

Big gaps in springs or handles. Let's face it--that looks awful!

Blades rubbing against each other or the liners is just annoying. Also can mess up the edges, as I've had knives before that liked to shut on other blades in the frame instead of going straight down in it.

Blade wobble. A major safety issue if noticeable enough. Those that have just a hint don't bother me. Many I have with wobble developed it in a short period of time, despite not having it new. I've had a few RRs and Bears develop it with just a month of light use.

Poor quality edges that require more than just a simple touch-up or resharpening. This includes edges that seem blunt, uneven angle grinds, or grinds too thick behind the edge. I'm not a good sharpener, and when it goes to heavy reprofiling, I'd be better off sending it to a pro.


Soft pull is one thing I dislike about a bunch of contemporary traditional knives--esp. the modern Buck 300 series. However, most manufacturers try to pass this off as a feature, and not a defect as supposedly "a lot of people complain about broken fingernails or being unable to open the knife". I like a decently strong pull, as it ensures the blade stays open in use without a lock. I have not had a single RR with what I'd describe as weak snap.

No snap closed. That's annoying, and definitely a sign of poor quality.


Here's an option not on the list, but a common problem that bugs me--knives with improperly designed (or overground) kicks that caused the tip or belly of the blade to become damaged.

Also, my Canterbury Scout King won't open a can too well either, but the (much less expensive) USGI one will almost. RR doesn't really know how to make a good can opener.


I can get pretty much any shell-handle American made Imperial for under $10. They hold a great edge, and my Kamp Kings will all open a can easily.

[OLDE CUTLER]

I have a few RR knives and none of the ones I own have any issues. But I have not bought any of them sight unseen and have had each one in hand before I bought it. Any knife regardless of brand or country of origin can have issues.

[Tec]

In 2017 i came across a Chinese made hammer brand red bone sunfish Whittler for 40 dollars. I always wanted one but didn't want to pay th 80 for a queen so i did review search and quickly found a review which described it as looking as good as a queen brand so i bought it. When i recieved it other than the scales were fitted a bit sloppy it looked pretty good for 40 bucks. The first day i used it to put a hole in the bottom of a pop can and the edge folded over. I fixed it with a stone. Then after about a week of carrying i noticed the scales were chipping away at the corners. First on one side then the other. The chips turned into chunks and i could see the bone had large air pokets and was defective bone. Then came the worst. I was checking out at Kroger and needed 39 cents so i reached in my pocket and felt the burn. I pulled my hand out of my pocket with long cut all the way up my little finger. I was bleeding all over myself and Kroger. The clerk handed me a paper towel and i walked out pushing the cart with my elbows because i was holding pressure on my finger to try to stop the bleeding. I got to the car and reached careful in my pocket and pulled out the knife. One of the back springs broke releasing pressure on a pen blade allowed it to open and cut me. About 3 months later i saw queen was going out of business and i new this was the end of being able to get a really good knife. I now have well over a hundred shatts winchester queen and robeson. I will never buy another chinese knife. So how much are you willing to sacrifice in quality

[Madmarco]

In 2017 i came across a Chinese made hammer brand red bone sunfish Whittler for 40 dollars. I always wanted one but didn't want to pay th 80 for a queen so i did review search and quickly found a review which described it as looking as good as a queen brand so i bought it. When i recieved it other than the scales were fitted a bit sloppy it looked pretty good for 40 bucks. The first day i used it to put a hole in the bottom of a pop can and the edge folded over. I fixed it with a stone. Then after about a week of carrying i noticed the scales were chipping away at the corners. First on one side then the other. The chips turned into chunks and i could see the bone had large air pokets and was defective bone. Then came the worst. I was checking out at Kroger and needed 39 cents so i reached in my pocket and felt the burn. I pulled my hand out of my pocket with long cut all the way up my little finger. I was bleeding all over myself and Kroger. The clerk handed me a paper towel and i walked out pushing the cart with my elbows because i was holding pressure on my finger to try to stop the bleeding. I got to the car and reached careful in my pocket and pulled out the knife. One of the back springs broke releasing pressure on a pen blade allowed it to open and cut me. About 3 months later i saw queen was going out of business and i new this was the end of being able to get a really good knife. I now have well over a hundred shatts winchester queen and robeson. I will never buy another chinese knife. So how much are you willing to sacrifice in quality

Good story Tec, and to AAPK!

[bigshot]

What is Hammer brand? Never heard of that one. I can't imagine a Rough Ryder doing all those things. But I'm sure there are good and bad manufacturers everywhere. If I judged Case by the first three Case knives I bought, I might not buy another. (And I only have three!)

[Quick Steel]

Tec, Welcome aboard.

[cody6268]

What is Hammer brand? Never heard of that one. I can't imagine a Rough Ryder doing all those things. But I'm sure there are good and bad manufacturers everywhere. If I judged Case by the first three Case knives I bought, I might not buy another. (And I only have three!)

They were a brand used by Imperial for many years--through the '50s, I think. Taylor Brands started using that trademark not long after they bought the rights to the Schrade name. There was an English Jack and a few other patterns.

[bigshot]

Over the past few months, I've been buying Chinese made folders for my collection. I think at this point, I have gotten about 100, mostly Rough Ryders, but also Queen, Marbles, Rite Edge and Old Timer. I was decided to wait until I hit 100 to comment any more in this thread, but all along I was carefully keeping track of the quality of the build of each knife. Here is what I found.

Out of 100 Chinese knives:

3 knives required returning for having uneven back springs. All 3 were in the Rough Ryder Classic Carbon II series. One of them had a slight dimple in the surface of a blade.

22 had very slight gaps in the backsprings. Nothing worth worrying about.

I lost count of how many were dirty and required flushing the joints and polishing. But it is probably about half of them.

All of them had good pulls and snaps, even the ones I sent back.

During the same time period, I bought 25 US and European made knifes. I didn't send any back, but of the brands, the one with problems that stood out was Case. I bought three Case knives and two had way too much gapping in the back springs. Worse than any of the Chinese knives. They still worked, so I kept them. And one of them had blades that were so hard to open, I ripped up my nails. I could only open it by slipping folded paper under the blades. That is a beautiful stag handled sow bellied stockman. I'm just keeping it for the looks. I would never be able to carry and use it.

On the other hand, I bought a dozen US made Bucks and they were all perfect. I also got a cheap Italian Army knife that is very hard to open, but it is new old stock and had started to rust. I'm going to need to work on it to get it usable. The German and English knives I got were perfect.