New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

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knifeaholic
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New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by knifeaholic »

I bought this on impulse on Ebay mainly just out of curiosity to see what the quality is like on modern Hen & Rooster knives.

I find the combination of markings to be odd. The main clip blade tang is etched (not stamped) with BERTRAM CUTLERY GERMANY under the Hen & rooster image (also etched).

Each of the three blades is tang stamped (main blade on back tang) with GERMAN STAINLESS HAND MADE then the pattern number 313-IQ.

As to country of origin?? Who knows. The box says "MADE IN GERMANY". Does that mean that the knife is made in Germany or just the box?

I really wonder who makes these and in what country.

The quality is as expected not up to the H&R's of old, even the 1990's to early 2000's.

That said, this one has no real flaws. Great snap, no blade rub. All decent F&F. The even use asymmetrical grinding on the two small blades to avoid blade rub.
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Steve Pfeiffer, author of Collecting Case Knives: Identification and Price Guide published by Krause Publications.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by kennedy knives »

Steve all I will say is Frost bought them in 1983 and that may tell you all you need to know
The older ones Had C Bertram which are good ones
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by Eye Brand Man »

I believe those are like the Boker tree brands that have the Germany shield and the box says made in Germany. These, by Bokers own admission are assembled in Germany from Chinese parts. I believe these h&r fall under the same category. The ones wholly made in Germany are stamped Solingen.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by kootenay joe »

German laws around markings are very lax. Boker and other German manufacturers have lobbied to get the laws tightened up. At present a knife can be marked "Germany" and be made elsewhere and sent to Germany for a light buffing before being sold. "Made in Germany" on a box likely refers to box and not necessarily the contents.
But other than curiosity why does it matter ? We want a good knife. A knife made in China can be better made than one made in Germany. It all depends on what the buyer requested and was willing to pay for a run of knives.
There is a 'mystique' around German cutlery, that it is "superior". If this was ever more than just smart marketing, it has not been true for decades. This is not saying that German cutlery is 'bad', just not superior to everywhere else.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by FRJ »

Here is a big congress from Bertram. 4 1/4". This is a very nice knife. It has some unique covers, the name of which escapes me
I bought it so long ago. Some form of plastic. But the action is very smooth and solid. All tangs stamped.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by kootenay joe »

In 1980 the original C. Bertram Hen & Rooster went out of business and the rights to the H&R name and logo became the property of Frost Cutlery and the new name became "Bertram Cutlery". For the first many years the Bertram Cutlery knives were made in Germany by Kissing Crane and later by Boker i believe. At some point Bertram Cutlery knives began being made in China.
I think the above knife is a German made Bertram Cutlery but it is hard to be certain unless you have followed these knives since 1980, which i have not.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by akarangerbluedog »

Here's a link to some of the old codes for handle materials. I don't see MO anywhere though.

"mottled oyster" maybe??? ::shrug::

viewtopic.php?p=126922#p126922
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by FRJ »

I think I bought that knife through Smokey Mountain well after 1980.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by FRJ »

Thanks for the link akarangerbluedog.

It's some kind of Corelon.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by akarangerbluedog »

BTW, here is a capture from the "WAYBACK" machine. It is henandrooster.com's "about us" page from 2016.
The page has been inactive since that time, only having a main splash page, with a "return soon" note...

About the Company
Conceived and hand-made in about 1845, the Hen & Rooster® brand had a modest beginning as the notion of Carl Bertram. Mr. Bertram was a well known owner of a poultry business in Solingen, Germany where he began manufacturing his own line of cutlery. Because of his association with the poultry industry in the surrounding communities, Bertram adopted the now famous Hen & Rooster® logo to mark his brand in about 1865. The small cutlery manufacturing facility of old has produced what many consider to be some of the “Worlds Finest Cutlery Since 1845”. The Hen & Rooster® logo is synonymous with high grade cutlery and superior workmanship exemplified by each manufactured knife. Over two hundred hand operations go into the creation of these superior knives. Only pocket knives manufactured by master cutlers from Solingen, Germany devoted to the details of polishing, fit, and finish of each product, earn the right to bear the Hen & Rooster® logo.

Carl Bertram's company continued manufacturing its fine cutlery under the leadership of several family members for many years. The original firm manufactured contract knives with Hen & Rooster on one side of the blade tang, and numerous other names on the reverse side. Bertram made these knives in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s for Carter Cutlery, Carter, Jeffrey, Kane, Voss, John-I-Son, Ky-Col, Gutmann Cutlery, Fife Cutlery, Mar-cal, A.G. Russell, L & N Loan Co. and Field & Co. All of these knives bear the Hen & Rooster markings. Knives marked “*Germany*” were produced in approximately 1980.

In 1975, the firm was purchased by A.G. Russell of Springdale, Arkansas. Mr. Russell’s company owned the Bertram Hen & Rooster® manufacturing facility, and brand for a five year span. During this time Mr. Russell produced Hen & Rooster knives & knives bearing his own trademark. He also made many contract knives for other firms bearing the Hen & Rooster® logo on one side of the blade tang and the contract’s firm name on the reverse side. The firm continued to be managed by a member of Mr. Russell’s family under his leadership until approximately 1980 when the factory in Solingen, Germany closed.

In 1983, the firm was liquidated, and the Hen & Rooster trademark and the Bertram name were acquired by James Frost of Frost Cutlery, Chattanooga, Tennessee; Howard Rabin of Star Sales, of Knoxville, Tennessee; and Hugo Schiesen of Robert Klaas, out of Solingen, Germany. After a short period of time, and prior to the retirement of Howard Rabin, Mr. James Frost bought the sole rights to the mark and distribution of all Hen & Rooster knives in the United States. Mr. Frost holds firm to the long distinguished tradition begun by Mr. Bertram; ensuring the superior craftsmanship of each Hen & Rooster knife. These pocket knives continue to be manufactured by highly skilled craftsman in Solingen, Germany. Through it's reputation of excellence, Hen & Rooster® continues carries the title of “World’s Finest Since 1845”.
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Quick Steel
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by Quick Steel »

As stated above, AG Russell had Bertram's for its final 5 years. Long after its 1980 demise Mr. Russell maintained that Bertram in fact did produce the finest made traditional pocket knives until the end. Not long ago he wrote that the current knives under Frost are decent knives but not at the standard or the level of the old Bertram.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by kootenay joe »

I wonder if this is accurate: "These pocket knives continue to be manufactured by highly skilled craftsman in Solingen, Germany. "
Other options are: made in China and then sent to Germany for final buffing & packaging,
or, assembled in Germany from parts imported from a manufacturer in China.
From what i have read, German import laws are so lax any of the above scenarios would qualify for a "Made in Germany" marking.
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Re: New Hen & Rooster Stockman Odd Markings ???

Post by Quick Steel »

Yes they would qualify for "made in Germany." However only knives totally made in SOLINGEN including assembly-can be marked with the SOLINGEN name. Boker, for example, uses different tangs for knives they make all over including "made in Germany." But the name Solingen appears only on those completely made there; the name is shown either on the tang or on the shield.
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