UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

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UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by americanedgetech »

I am repairing a lot of pocket knives to learn more about the methods used .
I will also be opening a tool/knife sharpening service, and part of that will be repairs.

So, I am looking into purchasing an ultrasonic cleaner for incoming project knives. I already use Evapo Rust to pull oxides off of iron/steel, and it is GREAT but the gunk/debris under handles, and between springs, tangs ect. is never effected or cleaned.

I would have to believe that a REAL ultra sonic tank would solve this issue. Perhaps in combination with the Evapo Rust since it is primarily made of water.
Does anyone here use or know of a professional knife repair service that uses an USC.

I would like to get all the input I can before I set down a grand on a tool that may or may not pay for itself in labor savings.

I already searched here, and found a few glancing references but I did not find any detailed information.
My theory on the use of these machines is it could save me from completely disassembling a knife for a through cleaning when all it may need is a scale or rust treatment, and lubrication.

Any thoughts are helpful.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by edge213 »

I don't know anything about an USC that cost $1000.

I have one from Harbor Freight . It's 2.5L, 160 watts. It only cost about $65 with coupon.

I love it. It does a great job.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by jerryd6818 »

I have and use this one. I'm extremely pleased with the results I get. I've never used anything in it but water and a couple of drops of Dawn dish detergent but the tank is stainless steel so make of that what you will. As you can see, the reservoir is not huge but so far it's done well for the size knives I accumulate. It was a gift from one of my buddies who bought it from MicroMark ---> http://www.micromark.com/Ultrasonic-Cleaner

It does say, (Not for use with volatile solvents.)

Dale (orvet) has one (or two). He's also a fan of the devices, plus he's a knife mechanic. There are others on the forum who use a Sonic Cleaner.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by americanedgetech »

It's an encouraging start...

The machine I am looking at is an Omegasonics commercial unit. 25 gallons, and 1000 watts. Knives are not the only things I will be cleaning. I am also staying in the antique marine hardware restoration business, and expanding that to include antique tools such as saw sets, bench vices, ect..

They are actually quite a bit more than what I am paying but I have a line on one from a golf ball mold manufacturer that is retiring. The machine is completely programmable so I do not have to concern myself with "dissolving" knives.

So... size/price eliminated... what can I expect in Pros, and Cons?

Edit:
I forgot to ask... Why is there so little info on these in the knife repair world? These are not new inventions by any account? That is my real concern.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by mrwatch »

As a graduate watch and clock maker I can tell you this, 25 gallons is over the top. I have an old five gallon one and it is large with a separate power supply. I made a wire rack and cut the top off a milk jug leaving the handle to put a large clock movement in filling the tank about one third full with water. Use Mr. Clean and water to clean with as it does not foam. Never turn on an ultra sonic with out some water in it as you will burn out the transducer. I have a one and two quart size unit for the small stuff. one is square and the other is rectangular. L & R is the main brand but many now offered. The solution gets hot with in five minutes so you will want to watch closely that you do not crack the scales etc. After clean cycle you may want to do a water rinse cycle and blow it or with a air hose. Bob
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by knife7knut »

I use a small ultrasonic cleaner that was designed for cleaning jewelry to clean out my striping and lettering brushes after use. Although it has a plastic reservoir I use mineral spirits in it and have had no problems with it. Never thought of using it to clean out knives but I will now! Thanks!
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by americanedgetech »

Thanks guys...
The large cleaner I am looking at will pay its way on the larger stuff but in thinking more about this it would make no sense to even think about it for just knife parts.
What I save in labor time I may lose in energy costs/machine up keep. Sooo I guess this brings a smaller machine/ bench top machine back into focus. I can research that part myself.

Now clock movements are much more delicate than a knife so I see no issue with loosening pins. Chemicals used can be pretty much anything that suits the purpose... Compatibility with scale materials is again up to the solvent used.

Mr. Watch. (Bob) ,You mentioned cracking scales. With natural materials like horn, bone, shell, I can see where this MIGHT be an issue. Especially if there is already stress say around a pin due to debris or maybe a sugar drink where the sugar has crystallized, and expanded or simple corrosion inside or under bolsters....

Is anyone familiar with any MAJOR issues that can/will happen with a commercial/industrial type USC? I mean IF a pin fails, and a bolster comes loose I see that as something was was going to fail anyway, and should be addressed as such.

I'm more concerned with say... vintage scale materials or adhesives.

I'm sorry if I am asking the wrong questions because I am thinking out loud, and trying to figure out if this is something that really has a place in a knife repair shop.
Lots of things work out well on a hobby level but when you ramp up the numbers the chance of a failure becomes greater. I'd rather know if a road has potholes before I head down it. ::tu::
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by mrwatch »

The machine I am looking at is an Omegasonics commercial unit. 25 gallons, and 1000 watts. I think that you meant 2.5 2 1/2 gallons, that would make sense if used for some nautical antique as you said. The way an USC. works is that the transducer puts out ultra high frequency sound waves that creates micro bubbles on the surface, and as they collapse they break away the dirt. Thus to say that the machine will wash out dirt and oils etc. between a tight fit surface like the springs and the sides it more than likely will not as it will not force solvent into the area you mentioned. That is why we still have to disassemble a clock movement to clean the pivot pins and peg out the bushing holes. Dirt not removed is like sand paper to the hole.
What I meant to say is that the solution can get hotter than you will want to put your fingers into so I would try a few junkers before a fine knife esp. a customer repair. From what I see offered online their is several good brands offered new $150 to $300. It would be nice to have the metal basket to keep the parts above the bottom of the tank "sometimes sold separate". For small or tiny pieces buy a tea baler. A round screen thing with a handle or chain that you put tea leaves in and clamps shut.
Just rambling on as usual, Bob
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by orvet »

Ken, I probably use my sonic cleaner’s for knife cleaning and restoration similar to the way you would be using a sonic cleaner for knives.

First of all I do not use large industrial grade sonic cleaners. I would imagine they would generate too much heat. The only tools I ever clean in them is an occasional rusty tool from an estate sale, such as a small pair of rusty Vise Grips I picked up this week.
I have two sonic cleaners; one was a gift from a friend and the other something I picked up at a yard or estate sale.
One has a round tank in it about 4”in diameter, the other one has an oval tank will take a knife about 6” long. The little square one will run until a sensor and it tells that it is too hot and then it shuts down, approx somewhere between 5 to 10 minutes. The oval unit has approx a 30 second time cycle on it. If you want to run it for more than 30 seconds you have to stay close by and hit the button every time the cycle ends.
Sonic Cleaners a.jpg
Sonic Cleaners b.jpg
The good news is five minutes is the maximum I need to clean knife parts with a sonic cleaner, assembled knives I don’t usually cycle more than about two minutes. You must always be mindful of heat when using the sonic cleaner. After about five minutes a knife can be warm enough that it is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand. It’s about as warm as the hot water in your faucet.

I don’t let a knife get hot in the sonic cleaner if handles and everything are intact, unless they’re all metal. Obviously getting celluloid, bone, stag and even plastic handles too warm is not a good idea. If I am trying to clean a knife that is intact with handles, it probably has some junk down inside the pockets like oil or grease that I want to clean out, I would generally give that only three or four 30 second cycles to help cut the crud inside the knife. If that doesn’t work I generally add more Dawn and allow it to set in the cleaner and cool down. After it has reached room temperature then I repeat the three or four cycles, never allowing the knife to get too warm.

I’m very cautious of dry bone or stag in the sonic cleaner. If the knife is dirty but the handle appears to be in good shape and needs cleaning that I might use three or four 30 second cycles.

I suppose if you used a heavy-duty sonic cleaner with a much stronger vibration than ones I have you might be able to damage a vintage knife, crack the bone were stag handled, especially if you allowed it to get too hot. The sonic cleaners that I have experience with all generate heat. So anything that you’re going to leave in for any extended time had better be impervious to the heat. Too much heat and moisture on old, and probably dried out stag or bone handles could conceivably cause a crack as the moisture gets in the handle and expands it.

I really don’t find it necessary to use a long cycle on knives. When you put the knife in the water with the soap and turn the machine on you can start seeing dirt or rust vibrating out of the knife, almost instantaneously. After I have allowed the sonic cleaner to run as long as I want, I then removed the knife or parts from the cleaner and wash and rinse them in with hot water and a stiff nylon brush. Longer stiffer bristles will work down inside the pocket the knife is still assembled and help remove any remaining gunk in there.

Without knowing anything about the larger commercial units other than what I have read posted here, I would recommend you avoid them for the purpose of cleaning knives. I get so much crud and junk out of a knife, or off of the parts if it’s a disassembled knife, that I must of necessity change the water before I put in a second knife. In my cleaners I barely cover the knife being cleaned with water and then add a few drops of Simple Green or Dawn dishwashing liquid. Most of the time I have less than ½ cup liquid in one of my cleaners.

Well, that’s about all I can think of at the moment. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.


PS – if I were going to replace one of my units would probably look very hard at this one on eBay. I like the fact that it has a timer you can set.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DB-Tech-Digital ... 0005.m1851
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by americanedgetech »

Bob, Dale,
Your thoughts, and experience on this are VERY helpful.

The main use for the commercial machine is going to be vintage tools, and ships hardware. 25 gallons is the correct size. I was thinking a smaller dip basket could make it useful for knives but I have had a change of heart on that one.

The fella that owns the machine put it through it's paces for me on a pair of Chris Craft deck cowls, and a pair of Chris Craft cabin side emblems.
These are both cast bronze, and chrome plated (1956). The old chrome was flaking... In 3 minutes that machine had 95% of the chrome removed from all the parts. It also completely dissolved a 12"x12" sheet of aluminum foil. Oh... yes it does get hot. The tank is preheated but everything comes out at about 110* f at 3 minutes.

Soooo I am looking for a bench top unit to use along with the Omega. https://omegasonics.com/table-top-washers.shtml

Now that I have seen the real deal working I am looking for a smaller commercial unit. 3-5 gallons, 2-3 hundred watts, and programmable. Omegasonic has a few I am looking at new.



It seems that plenty of guys use these in the knife field but I wonder why they are not more common in knife supply shops or made more knife specific?
Well I have plenty of "Knife Lot" knives to practice, and dial in the equipment. There are just so many ducks to get in that row...
I don't know when to stop thinking about all these different things that I need. ::shrug::
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

Some hospitals I've worked in used commercial ultrasonic cleaners for surgical instruments. They worked quite well.
If one could obtain a surplus or used one, I suspect they'd do a bang-up job on pocketknives or tools or engine parts.

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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by americanedgetech »

RobesonsRme.com wrote:Some hospitals I've worked in used commercial ultrasonic cleaners for surgical instruments. They worked quite well.
If one could obtain a surplus or used one, I suspect they'd do a bang-up job on pocketknives or tools or engine parts.

Charlie Noyes
I'm thinking the same thing Robesons. I appreciate the fact that people are using them here. That reinforces my feeling that they are appropriate for knife use.
With Mr.Watch using them on clock movements that makes me feel even better.

Part of my issue in living in Franklin Co, Fl. is everything is so far from here, and even the large cities that are close are still way behind as far as technology is concerned. "Geographical oddity... Two weeks from everywhere".
Point is used equipment is not to be had easily. Either shipping or a road trip to pick something up kills all the value in buying used.

The large machine I do have access to is an investment in my business, and I'm thinking now that the smaller machine even new will save me many hours of work, and pay for itself in a short order.

I'm still curious though if I can find info on someone blowing a knife or scales apart in one of these machines. Perhaps I am worrying about "What If" too much because in the 4-5 weeks I have been reading, searching, and asking all I have is "It will work". ::tu::

It will take me a couple weeks to be able to order the new (smaller) machine so I still have time to learn more about the potential cons. I'm mainly worried about antique scales/handles. Even 40 year old synthetics can be brittle so that is my only real concern.

I guess I have to learn more about the physics behind the method. ::nod::

Thanks for your input Charlie. It helps! :)

Ken
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by TripleF »

Hey bud.....I use an ultrasonic cleaner.....helps, but still doesn't get the fine grit out IMHO.

We've got loads of info on knife cleaning right here:
viewforum.php?f=37
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by edge213 »

No offense meant, but why are we still beating this horse. It's been stated by a number of guys that USC work just fine on pocket knives. I use one all the time.

I have used in on most handle material, bone, stag, wood, celluloid and metal. You just have to make sure it doesn't get to hot.

Sometimes on bone, stag and wood you may have to rehydrate.

I never use it on celluloid that has paper under for fear the water will get under the celluloid.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by americanedgetech »

I'll read the link.
Thank you!!!

Edge,
The reason I am dragging the horse back out for another round of beatings is, the posts I have read here, and other places around the net are only discussing retail'consumer grade units. Most of them well under 50 watts.

As I mentioned earlier the 1000 watt machine dissolves aluminum foil in 3 minutes. The Harbor Freight unit make pin holes. The smaller "dental" type units will do nothing to foil.

I am trying to find that "line" that divides just enough from too much.
I'm not looking for a home/hobby machine. I am looking for a machine to support a walk in shop.

That is where the information is lacking (as far as I can determine). I'm reading the material from several manufacturers right now, and when I have enough info to form the correct questions I will look for those answers.
Hopefully, I can come up with something/information that will benefit everyone looking into this in the future.

The right tool for any job is my goal, and I do not like just trying something to see if it suits my need. I would rather KNOW it will or will not work for me. Know what the limitations are such as TrippleF's (and others) statement about fine grit because it just may be the strength of their machine or the solvent used or any number of other factors. Perhaps a more powerful machine will work better? Perhaps a different solvent?
Than again the statements about these not harming scales will be blown out of the window with a commercial machine.

I still have too many questions to let the horse alone.

Edit:
I stated in the first post I am opening a shop.
Part of that is purchasing knives for re-sale. For the past 3-4 months I have been purchasing about 20 -30 knives a week from all sorts of sources, and in all states of repair.
The vast majority are antique or vintage dating from 1850 thru to new but most of them need a bath. I do not have time to hand scrub hundreds of knives, and most likely not get the same results that a few moments in an USC can produce.
That is the crux of this thread.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by americanedgetech »

Ok... I have a few links to share that will help anyone using an USC.

They discuss everything from the theory of operation, which cleaners work best in specific situations, the reasons temperature control is important, types of transducers, right down to the effects of the transducers on the tank used.

In fact there are formulas here that will allow you to determine the transducer required for a specific tank size, shape, volume.
There is enough information to build you own USC or modify the one you own to work within a specific set of guide lines determined by you.

Thank you for everyone for your help, and input. Now I can share what I learned due solely to you fellas helping me know what to look for.
Thanks!!!
K

This first one is general operational theory in PDF format... infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/27/26645.pdf (copy/paste and go)

This is fairly detailed operational guidlines, What solvents work w/ which materials, and some in depth theory... http://bluewaveinc.com/ultrasonic-cleaning-101/

This one describes applications from artillery to pharmacological. Lots of technical insights... https://www.bjultrasonic.com/ultrasonic ... ification/


Notice none of them are UTube reviews. ::paranoid:: I'll come back to this thread when I have some real world experience to share.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by Doc B »

I absolutely love my ultrasonic cleaner...but recently found a no-no.

Although not the same knife...my old Imperial Celluloid started out looking like this...
Imperial.jpg
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And came out, looking like this...
IMG_1166.jpg
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Sorry to see that Doc. I guess at least it’s clean now. I assume it was a solvent? Was it heated?

Please elaborate, so others of us don’t repeat it. ::woot::

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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by jerryd6818 »

I only use warm water and a couple drops of Dawn dishwashing liquid in mine. EVER.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by Doc B »

I had a little dishwashing soap and a little ammonia in the mix. I never use any solvents. It is a heated ultrasonic unit. Fortunately, it wasn't any real loss, to me...one blade was tipped...I just wanted to post...in case others were considering ultrasonic units. I would add that the stripes appeared superficial, as if painted on. The actual celluloid appears intact and unaffected. Maybe solid celluloid colors / designs would be unaffected ::shrug::
I'd be cautious with celluloid. I've used it on every other type knife, with good success.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by jerryd6818 »

Doc B wrote:I had a little dishwashing soap and a little ammonia in the mix.
Doc, not being critical here by any stretch of the imagination, just curious. Why do you add ammonia to the mix? What do you feel that gets you?
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by Doc B »

Good question...and I don't even know...just guess I was kind of sticking with a "glass cleaner" type formula, that I had used successfully with for jewelry and all my other knives.
Uhh, but I guess we are cleaning non-precious metals ::dang::
Certainly the ultrasonic waves and a little soap will get the same results. I don't know if the ammonia affected the paint. I was just guessing such a thin layer of paint, on old celluloid, that the ultrasonic action might be more responsible for the result ::shrug:: .
To be safe, I too will probably stick with the few drops of dishwashing soap...in the future. If I had a nice celluloid knife...I'd probably stick with old fashioned one-on-one cleaning.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by mrwatch »

I learned in watch and clock school and in collecting that ammonia can cause micro line cracks in brass clock movement plates. My teacher preferred Mr. clean as it does not foam up in ultrasonic s. I have a vintage tube type one for watch movements and a old L & R for watch and some types of clocks movements that is automatic. Must weigh 100 lbs? ::uc:: My big 5 gallon one has six transducers and can create waves .
The liquid cools the transducer or they will burn out, and if left running awhile can get to hot for your fingers. For some types of rocks and fossils it is the way to go, to get out dirt.
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Re: UltraSonic Cleaners, What are your thoughts...

Post by edge213 »

Like Jerry stated I also use dish soap only with the exception of sometimes adding a little "ultra sonic cleaning powder" available at Harbor Freight. The powder smells like powdered laundry soap.
I never put celluloid in the ultra sonic cleaner. I was afraid the heat might cause bad things for the celluloid.
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