Off gassing, not a problem anymore.

[mgdelpriore]

Back in 2001 I was lucky enough to be able to buy the complete set of Case Select knives. In that set, five of the knives were celluloid handles. Three were candy stripe, and two were waterfall celluloid. I was aware of the problems with off gassing, so I kept a good eye on them. Cleaning them about twice a year. In 2006, I noticed that the two waterfall handled ones were starting to show signs of off gassing on the bolsters. The candy stripe ones were still ok. I did some research on off gassing, what causes it, why and how it happens, and any solutions to this problem. Then one day I was cleaning out my freezer and found a package of hamburger meat that had fallen behind the ice cube maker and was hidden from sight. It had been there for about two years according to the date I had written on the package. When ever I buy meat that I am not going to eat that day, I always use my seal a meal food storage machine to help with freezer burn and other problems associated with long term freezer storage. then it came to me, If this hamburger meat was in there for that long, and still looked fresh, why not try using this machine with my celluloid knives. I took the five knives and sucked all the air out with the machine and sealed them up. they have been in those packages for eleven years now. I keep them in a dresser In my house, in the original box that they came in, all sealed up. Yesterday I opened them up yo see if any further damage had happened and found them to be the same condition as they were as the day I sealed them. I just wanted to share this info. with everyone. It seems to work for me.


Mike.

[btrwtr]

Makes sense and if that will arrest the off gassing it could preserve a lot of knives. Thanks for sharing.

[stockman]

If you are saving them for a museum or for history that would be good. For me I like to handle my knives, carry them
and use some of them. I do have a few that I would not carry often, maybe to take them to show and tell with the boys or a show. Just my opinion.

Harold

[mgdelpriore]

You'r welcome Wayne. I have yet to try this with a older knife witch has more advanced damage from off gassing, so you may have to wait another ten plus years to get a answer on that.
Hope I live that long!!!

Mike.

[kootenay joe]

Is oxygen necessary for off gassing to occur ? i.e. your sealing-in system works because it prevents oxygen from being in contact with the celluloid ? This is a question, not a statement.
If not oxygen, what is the explanation ?
kj

[tongueriver]

The four classic accelerators of oxidation are heat, light, moisture, and any other source of a negative ion besides oxygen (chlorine, etc.). Moisture (water) is the most common source of oxygen. The vacuum sealing and into the freezer addresses all these bad boys, but it does not address the issue of why we have the knives in the first place.

[knife7knut]

An interesting concept for retarding(but not eliminating)the degradation of celluloid.While I am not a chemist or an engineer by any means,I was always with the understanding that any substance that contains nitrates does not need an atmosphere to degrade as it contains it's own oxygen atoms.And as celluloid is essentially nitrocelluolose(a form of gun cotton used in explosives),alcohol(which evaporates rather quickly)and camphor,it would seem that the material is literally a bomb waiting to detonate.The fact that detonation occurs at a specific rate(usually measured in feet per second)rather than an explosion(which if I recall from explosives classes is an uncontrolled detonation of above 24,000 fps)you could say that the celluloid is detonating at an incredibly slow rate.
I don't believe anyone has successfully determined as to what exactly causes celluloid to start to degrade but the factors of heat,light,and moisture certainly are a possible contributing factor.I would also add in the presence of a petroleum based substance(such as oil)that is more of a culprit. I base this on the observation of clear cel handles starting to degrade on the underside after the application of a lubricant to the pivots and having some get under them.
What still remains a mystery to me is why a knife handle will totally disintegrate on one side and be completely untouched on the other!Or why 100 year old knives will remain like new and 2 year old knives destroy themselves almost before your eyes.
As to evacuating the atmosphere and sealing the bags and putting them in the freezer I would be more worried about defrosting them(eventually)and creating all that moisture.It would be nigh impossible to disperse all of it(some getting under the scales). Just my thoughts.

[RobesonsRme.com]

If left in the sealed packaging for many years, will they, like Count Dracula, rapidly decompose before our eyes when finally opened?

Just kidding.

Just curious, but what is the cost of those machines today? I see them advertised on TV often.

Charlie Noyes

[RobesonsRme.com]

Just FYI, Pete Cohan, the former director of The National Knife Museum, once told me their technique for arresting/preventing celluloid out-gassing was to thoroughly clean the knife, then coat every part with Rust-O-Leum Clear Coat.

Seems like the same thing, sort of, doesn't it?

Charlie Noyes

[CheckSix]

Interesting discussion!

I would also think that the quality of the original processing to mfg'er the celluloid and the quality of the ingredients, etc., also probably plays a role in it's long term stability. I know this to be true in other materials that I have dealt with in my past.

Cal,
I liked your photos above... so I want to add this one of a curious Peahen.

[mgdelpriore]

Just to let you know the knives were not stored in the freezer, they were stored in a dresser drawer in a climate controlled home. I am not saying that this will completely stop the off gassing from happening, I am only pointing out the results that I have seen over a eleven year time period. It seems to have slowed it down.
The machines are not that expensive and you can get them at walmart or any other similar store. also if you want to enjoy your knives or show them around, you can cut the package open, then reseal them again.
Like I said, It seemed to work for me.

Mike.

[knife7knut]

Just to let you know the knives were not stored in the freezer, they were stored in a dresser drawer in a climate controlled home. I am not saying that this will completely stop the off gassing from happening, I am only pointing out the results that I have seen over a eleven year time period. It seems to have slowed it down.
The machines are not that expensive and you can get them at walmart or any other similar store. also if you want to enjoy your knives or show them around, you can cut the package open, then reseal them again.
Like I said, It seemed to work for me.

Mike.

Sorry Mike I mis-read the original post.My knives(all of them) are kept in a climate controlled environment and out of the direct sunlight. My celluloid knives that are not out-gassing are kept in an old aluminum fishing lure box with small packets of dessicant (from medicine bottles)in each pocket. These are shanged about every six months and so far I haven't seen any further deterioration. I have one that I keep out next to the computer(a United Boker one armed man's knife)that has candy stripe handles that defy any effort at halting the deterioration.My current experiment is to soak the knife in white vinegar to remove any corrosion that might be left and to coat the undersides of the scales with a clear coat(1-Shot Sign Restoring Clear)which is an enamel based clear finish for restoring vintage signs.

[RobesonsRme.com]

CheckSix, not my photos.

Charlie

[CheckSix]

CheckSix, not my photos.

Charlie

Sorry Charlie!

[kootenay joe]

All of the cell outgassing i have had has been in the more recently made knives, Germany late 1970's & on; Buck Creek, Fight'n Rooster, Eye Brand yellow, etc.
None of my old ones (pre WW II to about 1910 ?) have ever shown any signs of becoming unstable. I believe it is possible if the celluloid was made exactly right and handled properly it might remain stable for a very long time as long as it does not meet an 'accelerator'
Is "French Ivory" a celluloid ?
I have a lot of vintage knives with this imitation ivory and i have never seen any change in any of these, many are 100+ yrs old.
kj

[CheckSix]

So, I'm not trying to be pedantic here... but the correct way of testing this theory, would have been to have identical knives from the same production lot and put some in the vacuum sealed bags and the identical matching knives out, exposed to atmosphere and various conditions. And if you really want to be correct, you expose both batches to accelerators, like sunlight, heat, oxidants, etc. This is how you test things, with controls and variables.

The way it is now, what has been presented is anecdotal evidence. It's interesting ...but we essentially can't tell if it actually helps or not.

[kootenay joe]

Dave, i understand fully but will add that anecdotal information is what our hobby has been built on, so it fits right in !
kj

[CheckSix]

Dave, i understand fully but will add that anecdotal information is what our hobby has been built on, so it fits right in !
kj

kj,
Its a problem I have from working in a science/technology career for 39 years. I actually got trained in design of experiments and using analytical tools to evaluate test data, to see if certain variable factors were valid or not, or interacted together, in controlling/achieving a desired result. If you really want to bore yourself, Google.... Box-Behnken. Believe it or not, these techniques are very powerful and actually work. DuPont trained me.

[kootenay joe]

Dave, i too have a science background and understand the 'scientific method' as well as the importance of valid statistical analysis.
Hence i think it is important to realize that most of what gets stated about knives is anecdotal. Even posts of testing knives for sharpness & edge holding are not up to scientific standards, although the info they provide at times can be reasonably accurate.
As but one example: older 'knifers' have posted that Schrade USA did the best heat treat of 1095 because their blades would take a sharper edge & hold it longer than any other manufacturers 1095 blades.
But no one actually did rigorous comparison testing. The superiority of Schrade 1095 is anecdotal yet gets re-quoted as fact.
I think much of our knife knowledge is based on anecdotal evidence which means it could be 'mis-information' (now aka "alternate truth" !)
kj

[CheckSix]

kj,
Got it! Understood. Regarding the OP story using vacuum sealing to prevent celluloid outgassing, I'll say it again, it may be good and useful. We just don't know definitively that it actually works.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Regardless of whether the vacuum seal bags or the Rust=O=Leum Clear Coat methods are effective or not re' a knife that has started the out-gassing/deterioration process, they are, at best, a postponement of the inevitable.

Are we going to tell our grandsons, "Here's a great old collectible knife, but don't ever take it out of this wrapping"?

Can we sell them on Ebay in the vacuum seal bags?

Not dissing the technique, in fact, I'm seriously considering a trip to Bed, Bath & Beyond.

Charlie Noyes

[dweb1897]

Celluloid needed thermal curing to stabalize it after it was produced. The handles that last 100 years were most likely cured properly and the handles that last only a couple years probably came from stock that wasn't.