German Nazi bakelite secret knife

mtravers · Post by **mtravers** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:06 pm

My German grandfather Archibald collected knives-he passed away in 1998 after slipping on a throw rug during the superbowl-a sad story, since he had always told grandma that those stupid little round rugs would be the end of him. Grandma died in 2001, and never cared a bit about grandpa's knives (in fact, she rather thought that collecting them was a waste of time and money..but quilts? That was an entirely different story.... Anyway, In his collection, he has a knife that is labelled "Nazi Bakelite-late 1930s." I have never seen another, and was wondering if you might know if these are common or not-we are thinking about selling it. It is disguised to look like a cigarette. Any info you might have would be appreciated. (the yellow tag is just grandpa's numbering system which peels off). We contacted a Bakelite expert, and he offered to buy it from us for a thousand dollars, but said that he had honestly never seen one before, but had heard that the Germans had sometimes used Bakelite in military weapons. I hope these pictures are detailed enough for someone here to recognize it. Sadly, grandpa outlived all of his buddies in WWII, so I don't have anyone alive who knew about it. I do know that he said there was one other like it owned by a collector in London that he knew of. We don't want to sell it at a garage sale or fleamarket, since we would rather that it go to a museum or responsible collector that will care for it. Thanks in advance

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:21 pm

welcome to the sight. stop by our new mwmber section and tell us a little about yourself.

why do you associate it with the nazi's? are there any markings on the blade? sell it to the collector who offered a $1000.

it does'nt appear to ba a secret knife but a novelty type knife.

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:25 pm

Looks like a cigarette.

gogators766 · Post by **gogators766** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:26 pm

$1,000

SOLD

arathol · Post by **arathol** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:24 pm

Are there any markings on the knife? Pictures of marks would be really helpful to identify what it really is.

Ringmaster · Post by **Ringmaster** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:48 pm

Hi Mtravers, welcome to the forum...

Arathol had the most pertinent question - look at the tang of the knife, and describe what it sez there. Pictures would be even better, if you could close-up the stamping. If it IS a Nazi knife, there will be Nazi markings (unless it's really a clandestine knife, then there would be no markings, at all). However, if it were a last ditch, spy-knife - the blade would have been hidden inside, not visible upon examination.

Are you REALLY sure it's Bakelite, and not plastic ? Did the expert see it, or just make his offer, based on your description ?

And, I may be waaaaay wrong here - but I never saw (heard of) a filter cigarette, before WW II. Can anybody correct me on that ?

Give us some more info, we'd love to hear more about it.

JR

remington collector · Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:54 am

I agree with the other posters. You'll probably never find anyone that wants it any more than the guy that offered $1000. I'd sell it to him.
I found out by googling that in 1952 only 1.3% of all cigarettes had filters.
Also found out that some of the first filters contained asbestos, I would think thats kind of a double whammy on the lungs.

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:47 pm

Based on the following it is unlikely to be genuine 'Bakelite' The name and trade mark were bought by the Union Carbide Corporation in 1939 from the inventor American Leo H Baekeland. Maybe it is German made 'faux Bakelite' Just my opinion, I'm no expert on the subject an it could very well be a rare item. Like the others I'd like to see the tang stamps on the blade if possible.

s-k

http://www.plastiquarian.com/bakelite.htm

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:13 pm

remington collector wrote:I agree with the other posters. You'll probably never find anyone that wants it any more than the guy that offered $1000. I'd sell it to him.
I found out by googling that in 1952 only 1.3% of all cigarettes had filters.
Also found out that some of the first filters contained asbestos, I would think thats kind of a double whammy on the lungs.

JR, I believe you are quite correct about the the filter cigarettes being post-WWII.

IIKC, it was Kent Cigarettes that had the asbestos filter. I believe that were on the market for a year or less.
Talk about a poor job of product research!

Kent with filter tips were introduced in 1952, L&M in 1953, and Winston & Marlboro in 1954.
Prior to filter tips there were some brands, (many British), that had cork tips, cardboard tubes, or folded paper wadding on them, e.g. Viceroy (1938- made by Brown & Williamson), which was changed to a cellulose filter in 1954.

Measuring the size of the knife might give a clue to when it was made.
IIRC, (since I don’t smoke anymore I don’t have a cigarette handy to measure) the regular size cigarette (like the Camel or Lucky Strike non-filter), circa WWII was about 70mm, the king size was 85mm. I don’t think King size (85mm) were very common during WWII. The 100mm cigarette came along much later.

If the knife is about 70mm, then the colored tip could be construed to emulate a cork tip on a regular size cigarette of the WWII era. It could also be true of the 85mm size, though much less likely. However if the size were 100mm I would doubt that it was made prior to the 1960s or 1970s.

If it were made to be clandestine it would need to blend in with what most people were smoking in that day. While not uncommon, a cork tip was not the way most cigarettes were made. They probably commanded a premium price, so it could have been that it was designed to look like an expensive cigarette.

I guess we need to know what the size of the cigarette knife is when closed.

Dale

Much of the info in this post is from the book Cigarette Pack Art, St. Martin’s Press, © 1979