Shield Replacement on Re-Handled Knife

[QTCut5]

I have purchased a number of rehandled knives and I've also comissioned rehandle jobs on a few knives from my collection (for various reasons); but, this 2006 Wharncliffe Copperhead is the first knife that I specifically requested (and paid extra) to have the original shield replaced as well. Not being a craftsman myself, I engaged the services of a professional whose quality of work I am familiar with both from past jobs he'd done for me as well as from the customized knives I've purchased from him. I had no idea just how tricky and difficult it is to get a nice, tight "factory fit" when replacing a shield. After several botched attempts (and several ruined slabs of Paua Abalone...not exactly a cheap material for trial-and-error!), this is the finished knife that was returned to me in exchange for the previously agreed upon fee of $140. My first reaction was dismay and disappointment at what appears to be a badly executed shield replacement on an otherwise well-done rehandle & backspring filework. So, what do you think, my trusted forum friends? Is this acceptable work for a professional? Or, am I being too picky and unreasonably demanding considering the level of difficulty and the amount I paid for the job? I'd really like to hear your honest assessments and opinions (from professionals and amateurs alike) regarding the finished result of the shield replacement work.

Cheers & Aloha,
~Q~

[tjmurphy]

I'd say that it is a botched job, no matter what you paid to have it done. After the first slab he should have admitted that he couldn't do it. Not a good representation of a "professional's" work. JMO

[dcgm4]

Q, sorry to hear you're unhappy with your customized knife. I can see why you're disappointed with that shield replacement. The fit and finish is pretty poor. It looks like whomever you had replace the shield wasn't familiar with working with paua shell. I myself have commissioned a few custom jobs, and I know I'd be upset if a knife came to me with the shield looking like that.

I do have a question for you, however. Did the person who replaced the shield give you any advanced warning that they weren't familiar with working with paua shell or did they say that the job would be no problem? If they told you prior to taking the job that paua shell wasn't something they were comfortable working with, then you can't put too much blame on them for doing a poor job as you sent them the knife knowing their limited experience. If they said it was something they could do, then in my opinion you have a legitimate complaint about the workmanship. If it were me I'd want a partial refund (they did do the filework on the backspring and I assume the back scale is fine) seeing as you'd probably need to get the front scale replaced by someone else.

[QTCut5]

Dave,
Here's the weird thing...after the first botched attempt (I was emailed photos), the guy admitted to me that he didn't have the necessary skills or proper tools to do an adequate shield replacement, and he even suggested just going with a plain (no-shield) paua scale. I told him that I was really hoping to have the shield replaced, but that I trusted his judgement and to just forget the shield and put on a plain scale, but that I would expect a partial refund and I also wanted the original shield returned. Instead of doing this, however, he tried putting on a different shield that he had filed the edges in a scalloped pattern (I think as a way to disguise or draw attention away from the ragged hole in the paua scale). This attempt looked even worse than the first and I repeated to him (via email) to just forget the shield, put on plain scale and return knife, original shield and partial refund and we'd be all square. He ignored me yet again, and went ahead and tried the shield replacement a third time, the result of which you now see in my photos. At this point I had had enough and I told him to send my knife back and I'd get someone else who knows how to do it to apply the shield. I haven't communicated with him since receiving the knife back (without any refund) because I wanted to get some other opinions first, just to be sure it wasn't me being too demanding or expecting too much for what I paid. Also, I'm not a confrontational person and I was hoping he might see this thread and his conscience as a professional and honest businessman would compel him to do the right thing...I think I'll just email him the link and let him decide the proper course of action to take (notice, I made sure not to mention his name or business) if he has any genuine professional pride in his work.
Cheers & Aloha,
~Q~

[Miller Bro's]

Can I see a picture of the file work?

[dcgm4]

Q, I think you made the right call not naming the person in this thread. If you did he might see it as an attack on his reputation and business. That would probably anger him and any attempts at getting a partial refund would likely be sunk.

That being said I think you should be entitled to a partial refund because he ignored your requests to forget about putting a shield on the knife. Now, he may have had good intentions and was just trying his best to get the shield right or maybe he kept trying so he wouldn't need to give you a partial refund. It's impossible to know why he didn't follow your instructions. But, in my opinion, regardless of what his reasons were at some point he should've admitted defeat and put on a scale without the shield and given you a partial refund as you had requested. I hope you are able to work out a solution where both of you are satisfied with the outcome. Good luck.

[knives-are-quiet]

In my opinion; the person you had do the work isn't a professional and just a mediocre amateur .
From just these few pictures the scales look to be just glued on.
Even though these types of scales are very delicate an experienced professional knife mechanic would be able to pin them.
This person looks to be fairly good with a sander and buffer but terrible with a dremel tool.

The most unprofessional thing you can do offering any kind of service is not to admit making a mistake and not doing what the customer asked. "The customer is always right"
.
"Hey" if the person who did this work is reading this post.
Man up and give ~Q~ a full refund and eat the loss.
Or at least send ~Q~ a new set of Abalone slabs so this knife can get properly worked on by someone who has more experience than you do.

"DO THE RIGHT THING"

JW~

[orvet]

Inletting a shield freehand is a difficult job no matter what the material. If the guy was doing it with a Dremel, IMHO he was defeated before he started. He needed a Foredom which is much more precise because it relies on torque not RPMs.

I have inlaid plenty of shields and it is always a job I approach with fear and trembling!
Any material that has harder and softer spots, like the grain of wood, canvas or linen micarta has a tendency to pull the burr into the softer material, and really makes it difficult to get a perfect fit. I think shell would be like that.

I do not work with any shell material because the dust is toxic. Add to that the cost of one tiny slip and there is no incentive for me to work with such a material.

The fact is that he ignored your twice-repeated request to send the knife back without the shield and you would find someone to inlay the shield. He chose to ignore that and even put in a different shield.

Every knife maker I know makes mistakes, we are after all merely human. But when we make such a bad error, (and compound it with bad choices) we need to suck it up and either dip into our own pocket and replace the handle and install it correctly, or give the customer a full refund and let him find someone with the skills required to do the job correctly. I probably have 5 or 6 half sets of bone handles because I cracked one or in some other manner messed up one of the handles. Sometimes it is because of a flaw in the bone its self. In that case I may have recourse with my supplier, other wise it comes out of my pocket, not the customers. (Having recourse with the supplier is one of the reasons I will rarely install handles provided by the customer).

The bottom line is we all make mistakes when we are learning a new skill, however it is NOT COOL to expect the customer to pay for my mistakes.

[QTCut5]

Can I see a picture of the file work?

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the honest responses. As you can see, the filework came out just fine. And the Cheetah Cub in the photo is another one the same guy did for me and I am happy with the work he did on that one; I have no intention of trashing anyone's reputation, especially someone who has done quality work for me in the past. I agree that we all make mistakes, regardless of what our specialty or profession may be...Heaven knows I made plenty of mistakes during my teaching career. One thing I always tried to teach my students, however, was not to be afraid of making mistakes (we all do) but, by the same token, not to be afraid or ashamed to admit when an honest mistake was made if you sincerely tried your best...the main thing is what you do to set things right, to make ammends and to learn and grow and improve. No one is perfect, but we can be perfectly honest about admitting our mistakes and perfectly willing to make the necessary corrections. That is how I treat others and that's how I would like to be treated in return...isn't there a name for that? Oh yeah, it's "The Golden Rule" : Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's how I was raised, that's what I always taught my students and, after many enjoyable years of knife collecting, that's what I've come to expect from associating with fellow knife lovers whether it be buying, selling, trading, or customizing. That is why it bothers me when I am expected to accept anything less from (or ignored and disrespected by) a "brother" who is also a member of the knife community. I mean, I've never even met any of you face-to-face, and yet I feel like our shared passion somehow makes us as close as "family"--maybe I'm the only one who feels that way, but for some reason I really don't think so.

Cheers & Aloha,
~Q~

[btrwtr]

I don't think it would be fair for a repairman to expect payment for this type of work. The knife is not presentable. If this were a car in for body repair the owner would be justified in expecting the job done and done correctly to completion. The fact that we are talking about a knife and not a car doesn't change that.

Wayne

[jerryd6818]

Glued on handles and this kind of "workmanship" for that price. There would be smoke coming out my ears. I would be to embarrassed to show my face in public if that were my work. I agree with Dale. Full refund and a huge apology.

Stand behind your work or stand in front of a bus. Your choice.

[knives-are-quiet]

[quote="orvet"]

Inletting a shield freehand is a difficult job no matter what the material. If the guy was doing it with a Dremel, IMHO he was defeated before he started. He needed a Foredom which is much more precise because it relies on torque not RPMs.
_________________________________________________________________________________

A small gantry router made for the dremel tool works well with this type of work.
But with this type of material I would do it by hand using very small hand held chisels.
Might take all day to do it but a lot less evasive than a rotary tool.
Another option would be to just mount the shield without inlaying it.
I have a few original antique pocket knives that have shields that are not inlayed.

<PS> I have never done file work myself but I have a few knives with back springs done.
The person who did ~Q's~ knife needs more practice.
The two filed back springs do not match up and are not uniform.
I'm sorry but they don't look professionally done.
They look OK but not professional .
JW~

[QTCut5]

Again, Thank You to all who posted replies. Just to wrap this up: The guy who did the work on my knife has given me a partial refund. I think it was largely due to your comments on AAPK that convinced him that was the proper thing to do. It still bothers me that a "steel brother" would behave as he did, but hopefully he has learned a valuable lesson. As I told him, "You will eventually forget all about this knife fiasco but I will get a horrible, sinking feeling in my gut every time I look at it... forever." At least now I can afford to have someone with the skills and tools necessary to fix this knife and make it presentable.
Cheers to you all for your sage wisdom and common sense,
Aloha,
~Q~

[knives-are-quiet]

Again, Thank You to all who posted replies. Just to wrap this up: The guy who did the work on my knife has given me a partial refund. I think it was largely due to your comments on AAPK that convinced him that was the proper thing to do. It still bothers me that a "steel brother" would behave as he did, but hopefully he has learned a valuable lesson. As I told him, "You will eventually forget all about this knife fiasco but I will get a horrible, sinking feeling in my gut every time I look at it... forever." At least now I can afford to have someone with the skills and tools necessary to fix this knife and make it presentable.
Cheers to you all for your sage wisdom and common sense,
Aloha,
~Q~

I'm glad this guy came to his senses and at least gave you back some of your money.
I myself would have never made this type of mistake but if I did I would have given you a full refund and probably more for your troubles.
I used to work on knives for others but stopped because it was nerve wracking.
You are most likely working on someones family heirloom knife that could be destroyed with one wrong mistake.
It wasn't worth the anxiety.
The guy who did your knife has talent don't get me wrong.
I think they just need more practice before they continue to try and make supplementary income from doing this type of work .
And they should feel free to ask for advice from the others on this forum who have much more experience.
I learn something new almost every time I come to this forum.

JW~

[QTCut5]

It's a mystery to me why some people are so stubborn and defiant when criticized for their work. Seriously, do they really think they're perfect? If I've learned anything as I've gotten older it's that regardless of how much I think I know, there's always more that I can learn. That's one reason I really love AAPK...just reading all the stuff people post has given me an incredible education...and it's all totally free! When I was younger I had a hard time accepting criticism, but there came a time when I finally realized that criticism that's offered in a spirit of helpfullness is actually a great benefit and an opportunity to learn and grow and improve myself. Too bad not everyone sees it this way.

Cheers & Aloha,
~Q~

[Elvis]

Just my 2 cents worth, but I agree that for the money you spent the handles should've been pinned on as well as the shield properly installed. You didn't get either one. Had those things been done right, it would've been worth the price.

[just bob]

Funny I saw this knife on ebay yesterday and was going to bid but passed after I studied the lousy job on the shield inlay and this was in stag. Not saying I could do better just saying this doesn't look professionally done in my opinion.
If the seller paid what the man in this thread paid for the modification sure didn't get a good return on his investment.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Case-3-Blade-Cu ... true&rt=nc

[QTCut5]

I've noticed on some of my knives with particularly gnarly stag scales that sometimes the shield doesn't appear to have a perfect fit due to the natural and varying depths of the grooves and ridges in the stag. That may be one reason Case just omitted the shield altogether on some stag handled models.

I find it interesting, however, that the description for this knife says it was "customized by a well known custom knife maker in Texas" and it has a similar appearance around the shield to my abalone copperhead which, coincidentally, was also customized by a well known custom knife maker in Texas. At the time I got my knife back from him, he said that he would have no problem selling this as one of his own...assuming he also did the work on this stockman, he was not just saying that in order to get me to accept and pay for substandard work. I wonder if the shield issue was the reason it sold so cheaply?

~Q~

[orvet]

I've noticed on some of my knives with particularly gnarly stag scales that sometimes the shield doesn't appear to have a perfect fit due to the natural and varying depths of the grooves and ridges in the stag. That may be one reason Case just omitted the shield altogether on some stag handled models.

~Q~

Gnarly stag or deeply jigged bone are tough to inlay!

Inletting a shield is more of a challenge than most people thing. If a large company had the automated CAD/CAM machinery to cut these inlays by laser or water jet, one might expect a near perfect fit on all shields. I have been in the Benchmade Factory several years ago and saw the CAD/CAM machinery and the water jet (as I recall) that they used to cut the sheets of steel into blade blanks to get the maximum number of blades from a single sheet. The operator programmed the machine and the robotics did all the actual work. It was fascinating to watch. Of course the machine had to be reprogrammed for each type of blade made.

I suspect Schrade used similar technology to inlet their shields in the Delrin.
Here are a couple Schrade Delrin handles ready for shields.

It is pretty easy to get a perfect fit when you are a large company who has the latest machinery to do precision work.
It is an entirely different story when you are trying to inlay a shield, by hand into uneven material that has varying densities and hardness within the material.
I am not sure the same technology Schrade used on the Delrin could be applied to something like stag or bone.
In addition in order to be financially viable, the batch of handles must be large enough to make the expense of the setup pay for itself. To use that technology for a single knife would be a big time money looser.