Schrade Walden NY USA 236

[TripleF]

Pics for identification:

[orvet]

Scott (TripleF) sent me a PM asking why the 236 I had listed in the Schrade Research Section (click the Schrade Open Stock Knives tab) showed the 236 as having black celluloid handles.
Great question Scott!

The following is my answer to him with a few additions and with some additional information I was able to ferret out on the 236 Open Stock pattern:

The knives are listed on my sheets in the Schrade Research Section with the oldest description available, usually the catalog they first appeared in. Since there over 200 knives in just the Open Stock series alone, I did not have the time or the space to note every change to a pattern over the years. Not to mention that the later catalogs were less descriptive and in many cases only listed a drawing of the knife and a code telling minimal info about the knife.

I looked up the 236 (Open Stock) and the 1962 catalog said the handles were “STAGLON”, but the drawing appears to be jigged Delrin, certainly not the “Staglon” we associate with the Uncle Henrys.

The 1958 “Short Line” page (essentially a 1 page catalog) shows the handles with the code ‘ST’, which indicates ‘stagged.’ Presumably it is bone that has been ‘stagged’ or jigged to resemble stag handles.

I do not have any literature between 1958 and 1962 that mention the 236.

Your knife first appears in any catalogs I have (my collections of Schrade catalogs is far from complete) as black celluloid in the 1950 catalog. The pattern was numbered as 2334-3/4B in the Schrade Cut Co catalogs. It was a pattern transitioned from the Schrade Cut Co into Schrade Walden. I do not have any catalogs or flyers from 1948 or 1949 that mention it. In 1947-48 Albert Baer purchased Schrade Cutlery Co. and renamed the company Schrade Walden.

The listing for the 236 was changed by 1958 to jigged bone and changed again by 1962 to jigged Delrin, thought they used the name ‘STAGLON’ at that time. (I say ‘changed by’ because I don’t have the catalog or two before those years to know exactly the year it was changed). That was well before the name “Staglon” was used in association with the Uncle Henry series of knives.

I really cannot get more specific than this on the 236 as I do not have every catalog and promo flyer Schrade printed, most especially in the first 10 or 12 years after Albert Baer bought Schrade Cutlery Co. They seem to have been more interested in making knives than keeping good records of what they were doing.


Great question Scott and a really nice knife.
Now if you can find an earlier version in stagged bone and one in black celluloid you will have all the variants Schrade Walden made (or at least the ones listed in the catalogs). If you really want a challenge, find on with the Schrade Cut Co markings.

Who knew knife collecting could be so much fun!

[TripleF]

Thanks very much Dale. I am grateful!


This knife is now listed on eBay and ends Sunday evening:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270802347554?ss ... 1555.l2649

[TripleF]

Just posted some pics and comments on my blog if you're interested......

http://pocketknivesblog.com/vintage-sch ... ket-knife/

[whitebuffalo58]

Picked up a ziplock bag full of old knives at a flea market in Branson over the weekend, this 236 was in the bunch. What would you call this pattern, a Seahorse Jack?

WB

[TripleF]

Beauty Rob! Knice score!

[whitebuffalo58]

Thanks Scott! According to the info Dale posted above, I guess this would be one of the earlier versions, made between '50 and '58. I'm not real sure the handles are a true celluloid though. I think they're actually slick black composition. More like Bakelite then celluloid.

WB

Edit: I went ahead and did a hot pin test, just out of curiosity. They're definetly not celluloid. The catalogs must have been using celluloid as a generic term.

[orvet]

What would you call this pattern, a Seahorse Jack?

Schrade called it a serpentine jack.

[tongueriver]

Thanks Scott! According to the info Dale posted above, I guess this would be one of the earlier versions, made between '50 and '58. I'm not real sure the handles are a true celluloid though. I think they're actually slick black composition. More like Bakelite then celluloid.

WB

Edit: I went ahead and did a hot pin test, just out of curiosity. They're definetly not celluloid. The catalogs must have been using celluloid as a generic term.

This knife first appeared in the 1932 supplement to the 1926 catalog "E." All of the writers on the subject that I know of have accepted this material as black celluloid, as have I. I don't understand why this may be in question. Bakelite pretty much was gone by the early 1930s as a knife handle or as anything else, in favor of celluloid. I think this is worthy of discussion and investigation. I would very much like to know more about the "black celluloid." I know by experience and by others' thoughts that it is less subject to shrinkage and other problems than some of the other composition materials. The yellow celluloid is notorious for failure. Here is a catalog cut.

[whitebuffalo58]

If i'm understanding Dale's post, the pattern existed earlier then 1950, but the 236 pattern number wasn't used until then.
The hot pin test didn't yeild the ever familiar camphor smell of a true celluloid, it was more of a burning plastic smell. I agree that it isn't Bakelite, the pin melted into the material too readily for Bakelite. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on handle materials or plastics, but what i've concluded from this test, is that these particular handles are not true celluloid, but a material closer to what I would generally call slick black composition. Softer then Bakelite, but harder then Delrin.

WB

[jerryd6818]

W.B. -- Maybe next time you test for Bakelite you might want to use the less destructive method of a Q-tip (another Kleenex word ) dipped in Formula 409. Rub it on the material in question and if it turns yellow, it's Bakelite.

[whitebuffalo58]

Yep, I know that trick. There's actually something else you can use besides 409, but I can't remember what it is off the top of my head.
In this case I was actually testing for celluloid. It lead to no real destruction, very small, obscure spot on back, right where the handle meets the liner and bolster. You really can't even see it. It's not a test I take lightly, but curiosity got the best of me.

WB

[tongueriver]

That is very interesting. It might explain why the black handles on old knives often show no failure whatsoever. Manmade materials on knives seem to be shrouded in a certain amount of mystery. I have heard that the Fightin' Rooster knives in wild colors are handled in celluloid. If that is true they must be the last of the last. Does anyone know about this? I know that GEC knives are acrylic.

[thawk]

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... W-CATS.pdf

Just a side note to the discussion... in the 1957 catalog, the 236 is shown as rough black with the same shield and a flat ground blade, even though the 836 was still offered as a slick black handled whittler with the sabre clip. I know there were jigged Delrin 236 soon after that. Anyone have a bone 236? I've seen the nice peachseed 837 whittler a few times.

Handle material is for sure a mystery from the "pre-Delrin" era. This catalog shows "bone stag", "stagged", and "duo-toned bonite" for various patterns.

[whitebuffalo58]

Great stuff as always thawk!
Something else I found interesting on the 236, is that the blades lay into the handles like a Robeson Pocketeze. I don't remember that ever being a selling point for Schrade.

I also picked up this Walden era 182 in the same batch of knives. Same pin test, same result. Not celluloid.
The advertising on both of these knives, appears to be a hot stamp, not something they would've likely done with celluloid.

WB

[tongueriver]

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... W-CATS.pdf

Anyone have a bone 236?

Yes.

[ea42]

Wow Cal that's nice! First one I've seen in bone. Regarding the black handled models, they were celluloid up until about the mid 1950's give or take a couple of years, then they went to some kind of early black plastic. Schrade moved to Ellenville in 1957, and I recall Dave telling me that they burned all of the leftover celluloid at the Schrade plant a some time before that. I'll have to see if he recalls when. He did say that they brought the sheets out (and there were MANY) to an old outside furnace and initially put a bunch in. When they put a match to them flames shot out of the top of the stack and lit a tree on fire!! After that they only burned one sheet at a time.

Eric

[orvet]

That is a BEAUTY Cal!

Eric, thanks for the info and the story. That is great stuff!

[313 Mike]

I thought I would add this newly acquired bone 236 to the thread for future research purposes..
Thanks Dale for all the info you posted regarding this model, very helpful and much appreciated!

[orvet]

Nice find Mike!
That is the nicest one I think I have ever seen!

[thawk]

Pretty sure this is a Primble version 236 in tasty peachseed. It was posted over on BladeForums. I do believe it was purchased from the AAPK Store "Sanders Knives" recently.

[Jtabor]

PBPrimbleRDS_zpsca600143.jpg
PBPrimbleRDSIII_zps9a5180a8.jpg
Pretty sure this is a Primble version 236 in tasty peachseed. It was posted over on BladeForums. I do believe it was purchased from the AAPK Store "Sanders Knives" recently.

That is one sweet Schrade.