Who makes them now that Camillus is gone?

[orvet]

We all know that Camillus was the Knifemakers Knifemaker.
They made knives for more companies than probably anyone else.

I was talking to Charlie on the phone & mentioned some blades I had made by Camillus.
He asked me to post a pic of them.
Many of them came from Tom Williams (CAMCO), and the others I bought off ebay.

It might be interesting to make a list of the different companies that knives made by Camillus .

Dale

PS- who/what is SAMCO?

[ea42]

Dale, Levine's lists Samco as Sanders Manufacturing Co. out of Nashville, TN.. They're a specialty advertising company that's been around since 1918. I believe at one time, (maybe they still do?), they marketed advertising pocket knives, like the cell ones you see with company names etched into them. Here's a link to their site:

http://www.samcoline.com/public/index.c ... t&pageid=2

Eric

[Another Knife Collector]

It might be interesting to make a list of the different companies that knives made by Camillus .

It would be easier to make a list of companies that didn't have knives made by Camillus!
Cool group of blades.

[W5RWU]

We all know that Camillus was the Knifemakers Knifemaker.
They made knives for more companies than probably anyone else.

I was talking to Charlie on the phone & mentioned some blades I had made by Camillus.
He asked me to post a pic of them.
Many of them came from Tom Williams (CAMCO), and the others I bought off ebay.

It might be interesting to make a list of the different companies that knives made by Camillus .

Dale

PS- who/what is SAMCO?

I will play this game, I will start with :
SCHRADE
MOORE MAKER
BUCK
REMINGTON
WHOS NEXT
W5RWU

[orvet]

Let us see how many Name Brands we can compile of companies that Camillus made knives for.
I will do a list at the end.

A few more to keep it rolling:

Case
Remington
Western
Samco
Boker
Powr-Kraft (Montgomery Wards)
Craftsman
Sears (different brand than Craftsman)
M. Klein & Sons (tool company)
Xcelite (battery or tool company I think)
Proto (tool company)
Wright & Wilhelmy Co. (hardware supplier)
Kent (F.H. Woolworth’s)

How mant more do you know?
Dale

[Fishmagician]

Has Remington designated another manufacture??? Thanks Mike

[greyelm]

Take a look at this thread from knifetalkonline

http://knifetalkonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=99.0

There are names there that I've nver heard of before

[hot tempered steel]

How about CAMCO and the knifes that are only tang stamped Made In USA or just stamped USA that Camillus made? Good read greyelm. The link does cause me to ask a question, the C C C stamp listed on that link, wasn't there another manufacturer that used that stamping also?

[Mossdancer]

HTS;
CCC CATT was one I believe. greyelm: Thanks for the link. I always wondered who this was made by.
moss

[ea42]

What a list! Here's a couple more:

Catskill Knife Co.
Syracuse Knife Co
Clover Brand
Collins Bros.
Dunlop (Sears Brand c'38 '42)
Fairmont Cut. Co.
Federal Knife Co.
Imperial Frontiers
Gamble Stores
Hart Cut. Co.?
Sears "High Carbon Steel" Knives
Kwik Kut (another Sears brand '30-'41)
Simmons, Warden, White & Co.
Stainless Cutlery
Streamline

A number of the above knives were actually Camillus owned brands, like Catskill, Syracuse, Stainless, Streamline, and Fairmont.

Eric

[ea42]

Greyelm, I should have checked your link BEFORE I posted the above list, seems I've doubled up on a lot That's quite a compilation


Eric

[hot tempered steel]

That's the one I was trying to think of Moss. ea42 or Eric if you don't mind me calling you that, weren't the Imperial Frontier knifes made by Schrade only or did they out source some of them? Did Camillus have the swinden key equipment to do those knifes if they did them under contract for Schrade? I love this website. It's amazes me of the amount of knowledge the one can learn from just a single post. By all means, please, continue gentlemen.

[RobesonsRme.com]

I don't think anyone has mentioned STA-SHARP, another Sears house brand made by Camillus.

[orvet]

That's the one I was trying to think of Moss. ea42 or Eric if you don't mind me calling you that, weren't the Imperial Frontier knifes made by Schrade only or did they out source some of them? Did Camillus have the swinden key equipment to do those knifes if they did them under contract for Schrade? I love this website. It's amazes me of the amount of knowledge the one can learn from just a single post. By all means, please, continue gentlemen.

IIRC, Dave Swinden told LT that Schrade was the only company that went with his system. Other companies passed due to the cost.

Some of the Frontiers were made by Imperial & some were made by Camillus.
Here is a Camillus S-Card for some February & March of 1984. They are for the production of the Frontier 4515 & 4815. As you read the S-Cards you will see that it gives the people in the factory all the production details they need to know to make the knife.

The S-Cards are courtesy of Tom Williams (CAMCO).

Dale

[hot tempered steel]

Thanks Orvet for the S-card post. I have 15 or 20 Frontier knifes in my collection. Is there a way of knowing which company (Camillus or Schrade) made any given Frontier knife with out taking it apart?

[orvet]

Thanks Orvet for the S-card post. I have 15 or 20 Frontier knifes in my collection. Is there a way of knowing which company (Camillus or Schrade) made any given Frontier knife with out taking it apart?

Not that I am aware of.
I can't tell the diff between a Camillus made 8OT & the Schrade version, except for the fact that the Camillus version has no Swinden key.

On a knife without a Swinden, such as a LB-5, I couldn't tell you which company made it.

Dale

[ea42]

Here's a shot of one of the 4815 lockbacks on the s-card in Dale's post. Great reference Dale! Sorry I didn't reply sooner Hot Tempered Steel, hadn't gotten back to the thread in a couple of days. Dale's answer is a LOT better than I could have done though

Eric

PS- They used stainless pins on these for added strength.

[hot tempered steel]

Yea Eric I think I remember reading somewhere on another post that I think Muskrat Man said Camillus used SS pins in there later made knifes for the extra strength. Orvet I wasn't even aware that Camillus made the 8OT for Schrade or that Schrade had the Old Timers contracted out. There's 1 notch in my handles for learning something new today.

[orvet]

They made the 8OT and many others.
I was shocked one day in my shop when I took apart a 61OT and found it did not have a Swinden key.
That is because it was made by Camillus.

When you think about it, Albert Baer owned both companies. If Schrade's production was booked, why not have Camillus make them? Better to have both factories running at near capacity than have one backlogged and the other running under capacity.

Here is a copy of the S-Card on the 8OT.

Dale

[hot tempered steel]

Those S-cards are a great resource for the true fact history behind the knifes Orvet. I know that as for myself, if someone would have told me Camillus made the 8OT or any of the other Old Timers I wouldn't have believed it. Yea, it wouldn't have been very business smart to have knife orders waiting and have a knife making factory standing idle not filling those orders. Was the swinden key tooling that limited, because it looks like if Mr. Baer was having Camillus make Schrades, they would have had that same tooling at the Camillus factory. But then again I guess costs played a big part in the purchasing of that type of tooling. Was the swinden key design made to make knife production much faster for Schrade than the old common pinned style?
H.T.S.

[Phil Gibbs]

Swinden construction in NOT easier than pinned construction.
The main advantage of the Swinden method is zero QC layouts for pin shows (the "popping" of the bolster pin during the polishing operations).
However the Swinden Construction did of course have it's own problems, tightening of a loose blade for example required a different approach. Also I believe the maintenance of the assembly equipment was considerably more extensive.

Camillus never did Swinden construction; we almost did on some Schrade work, but abandoned it early.

[orvet]

Hi Phil,
I really appreciate your opinion on this subject. As someone who customizes knives, primarily Schrade and Camillus I noticed right off the bat that the Swinden construction is very different than a normal knife, such as a Camillus made with the through pin construction. Obviously the Swinden system presents some serious problems in the repair department.
I heard the story from some of the Buck people about how the Swinden construction and Schrade's refusal to change it, was the deal killer for the Schrade made Bucks because of the difficulty in repairing them. I'm sure that worked to the advantage of Camillus, who probably picked up those patterns.

I do not know how the Swinden machinery works, but when I examined several knives assembled with the Swinden system I thought it would definitely be advantageous during the assembly process. Perhaps you know if there was much hand work in the assembly of the Swinden knives? It appeared to me that the Swinden system, by converting the internal parts of the knife into a single subassembly would makes the final assembly process much quicker. The liners with the handles and bolsters could be hafted and polished before installation (I don't know if it was done that way, but I think it would be possible), then the two liner/bolster assemblies could be attached to the inner assembly, pinned, adjusted, then box for shipping.

I definitely see the advantage of the pin popping being eliminated, but I would have thought the entire assembly process would have been streamlined by the Swinden system. I would imagine the depths of the Swinden key heads was preset to a pretty close tolerance and that by so doing would eliminate the waste of the entire knife if the pivot pins were over tightened. Worst-case scenario, you would lose only the inner subassembly. Or am I imagining problems that did not exist?

I see this from a knife mechanics point of view, trying to look through the lens of a few knives and see the manufacturing process. You no doubt see a much larger picture as a manufacturer, concerned with quality, timely production, timely repairs and the bottom line.

I appreciate your time answering these questions, as you are as close as I can get to someone who worked in the Schrade factory. Even though you worked at Camillus, you are obviously familiar with their process and no doubt some of the issues they had with the Swinden system. I am very interested in knowing all you can share with me about the Swinden manufacturing process as well as Camillus’ more traditional through pin construction.

I find the manufacturing of these knives to be fascinating, not only in a historical sense but also from the perspective of someone who works on knives. When I have several knives that are similar in construction, needing the same processes, I will set up mini-assembly lines in my shop to achieve greater uniformity and speed.


Thank you,
Dale

[Phil Gibbs]

Dale,

I was extremely fortunate that in about 1982 Camillus sent me to Schrade for 2 weeks to study under Dave Swinden.
It was something I will never forget & some of those priceless little nuggets still serve me to this very day!!

I do not think any prefinishing of first assemblies was ever done. Firstly, only the pocket springs (2 holes; for 1 blade) were part of the initial assembly. The pen springs (1 hole; for 2 blades) were added at the final assembly. Also they would not line up with the liners/bolster scales that would require finishing too.

When comparing the 2 methods, in my humble opinion, there is no clear "Better" method.

The Swinden method of 2 assemblies takes longer, is harder to adjust & requires more complex set up.

The thru pin method frequently requires vast rework of pulled pins, is probably harder to reinspect (make walk & talk) & requires more steps after assembly.

I suspect the Swinden construction worked way better for Schrade than it would for Camillus as Schrade had MUCH LARGER production runs than Camillus, so I suspect many of the Swinden assembly machines stayed set up for the same knife most of the time.

In closing, I do recall Dave Swinden tellin me: "If I new as much about Swinden construction then as I do now, I probably would not have done it!"
Of course you need to remember that Dave is a very humble man. It gives me great pleasure to still be working with him at Canal Street today.

[texx39]

Hey Orvet,,,it is kind of odd that you asked about the SAMCO or Sanders Manufacturing Co.
I have a knife on the way that is tang stamped Sanders Manufacturing Co.
I found the same info on them,,,Sanders and SAMCO being one and the same that sells novelty and ad products to businesses but, what seems really odd to me is that they went to the expense of having their name stamped on the tang. I have acquired several ad knives over the years and they always seem to have the makers name on the stamp not the sellers name. I guess there are probably more of them out there but, this is the first time I have encountered it.
I am looking forward to getting the knife and maybe I will be able to figure out who made it for them or maybe not.

[orvet]

Thank you Phil.
I really appreciate & value your view on the Swinden system. I was especially interested in your quote from Dave. It is not often that one gets that sort of insight behind the scenes in the cutlery business.

You have definitely changed my opinion of the Swinden System. Thank you very much! Please feel free to continue sharing your insights of Schrade & Camillus. I love these inside views of the cutlery industry.


Texx - Please post pics of your knife. Phil can probably tell you who made the knife.

Thanks again Phil.
Dale