Is this a sign of gassing out

[Delmar Morgan]

I have a old Challenge pen knife , with celluloid handle. The back spring pin which is nickle silver is turning brown. When I got it last year it was that same color but worse , I cleaned but it is back. So is it starting to gas out.

[LongBlade]

Sorry to say but looks to be outgassing to me... I would pull the handle covers ASAP as I think you gave no choice if you want to save the knife and then have it rehandled... Right now I would not leave it near any other knives as the sulfuric acid from outgassing will damage others nearby...

[Kolvir]

Is there a easy way to tell if the handle is celluloid before it starts gassing out? I need to store some knives for moving and want to make sure I don't mix the wrong ones together.

[deo-pa]

I need to store some knives for moving and want to make sure I don't mix the wrong ones together.

For the purpose of your move I'd just assume that any handles that look like they are some form of plastic are celluloid and box them accordingly. If you have many knives that fall into that category don't box them all together but segregate them (for example groups of six knives in a Ziploc).

Once you make your move don't let them sit forever in a box in a closet or the basement. Unbox them when you get a chance and think about how you are going to store/display them for the long haul. Use the Search function to find lots of posts on storage and display options.

Dennis

[djknife13]

Kovar,If your celluloids aren't showing signs of gassing and your storage situation isn't for months, I wouldn't worry about storing them together. I have several hundred old celluloid knives all stored together in several knife rolls and I check them every few months and none of them have showed any signs. I have several repro Remington's and several cracked ice fixed blade Westerns that are gassing and I clean them every 5 or 6 months and leave them out open on shelves and they are doing fine. The 1950's and 60's cracked ice Westerns and the cartridge series Remington seem to have a problem. You have to watch them in case it speeds up or appears to be attacking the liners. A lot of collectors are a little paranoid about celluloids. It's a little like owning a German Shepherd. It could turn on you but the odds are very much in your favor. Most old celluloids will outlast you and have already have probably made it 100 years. I love the early celluloid folders and actively collect them and in 25 years haven't had a problem. I've had German Shepherds for 40 years and they have been great dogs. Some people are scared to death of them. I don't like and don't trust Pit Bulls. Each to his own. I see Dennis answered you too while I was typing and I agree with what he said too. ____Dave

[zoogirl]

Just a warning - I have a badly outgassed Richards Queens Coronation penknife. It used to live in a box with other old, small items. It put some nasty corrosion on my grandmother’s button hook. So, beware. It isn’t just knives that can be affected. It’s now cleaned and segregated, but it has sentimental meaning so I will probably keep it.
Most old Richards are celluloid btw, so if you have any, give them a bit of an extra look regularly. I bet Imperial is much the same.

[orvet]

I have a old Challenge pen knife , with celluloid handle. The back spring pin which is nickle silver is turning brown. When I got it last year it was that same color but worse , I cleaned but it is back. So is it starting to gas out.20190308_094916.jpg

With the knife you have posted, I would immediately remove the handles. Hopefully the liners aren't so far gone that they have started to crack, but you won't know until you get the handles off. The crack is usually right at the pivot pin in the center of the knife. That is where the stress from the springs are transferred to the liners and that's usually where the stress cracks the weakened liner.

Once you have removed the handles, throw them away (do not burn them). Then put the entire knife in a solution of baking soda and water. Be generous with the baking soda, it is not expensive. Essentially you are creating a heavily alkaline solution and that is needed to neutralize the acid that is causing the destruction of the knife. I usually take an old toothbrush or something and brush the baking soda into the knife really well. Sometimes I even let them soak in the solution for a half an hour or more. The last step would be to remove the knife dry it, compressed air is what I use to dry them. If you don't have compressed air, I would probably use WD-40. It is made for water displacement, and not for lubrication. After the WD-40 has cut the water out of the joints and cracks in the knife, then I wiped the knife down to remove the WD-40 and then I wipe a lubricating oil onto the carbon steel surfaces. Then set the knife aside until you can replace the handles, or have them replaced.

NOTE: If you have a knife that has stainless steel blades, the blades should not be affected, but if the springs are carbon steel they can be weakened substantially and of course the brass and nickel silver is affected. I have a German knife with a stainless steel blade that was probably made in the 1970s, and the blade is fine as is the stainless steel spring. However, I will have to make new liners and probably knew bolsters because of the destructive power of the acid released by the celluloid.

[LongBlade]

Note in edit - just saw 2 posts after Dave - all good info and again like Dale notes I would pull the handles. Like Dave said you’ll find a lot of opinions on celluloid - personally I don’t take chances and though I only have a few they are open to the air without direct light (ie stable environment)... I’ve seen a few knives 100 years old that were fine and out of the blue started outgassing.. for lots of info there are multiple threads on AAPK discussing celluloid and a pretty good article that was published discussing the phenomenon of outgassing and celluloid handles - if you do a search you’ll find more than a few...

Hey Dave - We have a pit bull - loving good dog but not fond of strangers - and I don’t trust nor like German Shepherds ... like you said to each their own and I truly respect all opinions ... That’s what makes the world go round - if we were all the same it would be a robotic society!!

[zoogirl]

Our best dog ever was a Shep, next in line was a Rottie.
I was going to say, is you do the baking powder cleanup, I suppose you can dry it with a blow dryer just as well, but if you borrow one, ask first!

[Delmar Morgan]

Thanks guy's and gals for info . I thought it was , but wasn't for sure. Now l got to see what I can re handle it with.

[rmsize]

In my experience, to check a knife handle to find out whether it is celluloid or plastic, make a small scratch, enough to loosen some of the material. Then smell it, if it is celluloid, it will have a camphor smell. Plastic will not have a smell. The scratch can be polished out , if you want to keep the celluloid handle.

[orvet]

Our best dog ever was a Shep, next in line was a Rottie.
I was going to say, is you do the baking powder cleanup, I suppose you can dry it with a blow dryer just as well, but if you borrow one, ask first!

That should work fine, though I would run the hair dryer cold. Too much heat will definitely harm it!

[Kolvir]

Would someone be as kind to look through my store and tell me if any of the knives I'm selling show any signs of outgassing? I was ignorant of it before I started researching after reading this post and want to be sure I'm not trying to sell anything bad.

[knife7knut]

Dale mentioned that celluloid out-gassing will not affect stainless steel blades. Here is a perfect example of the:a Sta-Sharp9498 Stainless Pen knife that I keep in front of my computer to remind me every day about out-gassing celluloid knives.

[orvet]

Would someone be as kind to look through my store and tell me if any of the knives I'm selling show any signs of outgassing? I was ignorant of it before I started researching after reading this post and want to be sure I'm not trying to sell anything bad.

I checked your active sales, but didn't see any that looked like they were offgassing..
FYI, you had several knives that were Imperial Hammer Brand shell handle knives. Those just have a thin sheet of celluloid covering the shell handle. For some reason they seem rarely to offgass.

Hope this helps.

[Kolvir]

Thanks for looking, I really appreciate it.

[LongBlade]

Interesting point Dale about the Imperial knives... I was always under the impression they were thin plastic as I had never seen one outgassing either ... are they definitely celluloid?

[orvet]

Interesting point Dale about the Imperial knives... I was always under the impression they were thin plastic as I had never seen one outgassing either ... are they definitely celluloid?

I believe they are celluloid, that's what I have been told. It was so long ago I don't remember the source of that information. It is obviously a different form of celluloid, if that is indeed what it is, because it has been rolled out into a sheet as opposed to poured into chunks or slabs.

That alone could have a great deal to do with the stability of the material.

[WillyCamaro]

It's a good thing i found this thread when i did. I started taking the covers off my Imperials last night.
Well it looks like they do gas off. The covers throw you off. I think they help to slow down the process, but don't stop it.
I noticed before, my large stockman had holes in the celluloid starting to form. I thought i was just shrinkage. Nope, the gas is just starting to rust the liners. On my other ones it is worse. The worst would be my little dogleg jack. It had a build up of what looked like battery acid leakage. All blue and such. I took some course steel wool and scrubbed them down. Luckily the rust is only eating a little bit of the liners in some spots.
My mint 1 blade jack only has 1 spot of rusting on liner. But it is already eating through it.
The large toothpicks are still good. Just surface rust and discoloration.
Barlow still looks fine.
Richards jack is discolored but no major problems.
My humble advice, If you have any real nice ones that you want to save. Pull the covers as soon as possible and get them rehandled. I was thinking to before, but now i am certain. Other than that, the next best thing to do is peel any celluloid off and give em' a good cleaning. Then maybe there would be a way to make covers out of some different material. Or paint them neat colors.
Better to save em' now then let it fester till it is too late.
Willy

[djknife13]

Willy, I doubt anyone is recommending you go through and pull all the covers off all your old celluloid knives. Only a very few will gas and destroy the knife, and if you watch your collection you can almost always tell if it's starting to off gas before it gets bad enough so you can replace it then. Like I said before, I have a collection of about 100 old, mostly early 1900's celluloid knives and I store then in a safe in a knife roll and check then every couple months. In 25 years, none of these have shown any signs of deterioration. It would be a shame to virtually destroy most of the value and integrity of these just in case that in another 100 years or so they might fail. If you see the bolsters or shield start turning brown or see a line of tarnish along the blade where it borders the scale, then isolate it, clean it and if it comes back, then is the time to remove the covers and have then replaced. You then have a knife worth about half what it did before you lost the covers, but you saved the knife. If I totally misinterpreted what you are doing, sorry about that. ____Dave

[WillyCamaro]

Very Very good advice Dave...
I totally agree. The original covers add a lot to collecting Imperials, especially if they are in really good condition. Like you say, it is pretty much last resort to totally take apart the knife. Especially if you have a bunch. And lots of the covers are quite beautiful, on the clear celluloid ones.
I have only 10 in my collection and i got them very reasonable. I have learned the steel it very high quality on these, that's why i got into them. I bought them in the first place to rehandle. I feel to me the loss is my gain. I don't plan to resell them ever. They are kind of project knives to me, want to lean how to make knives. I have them soaking in baking soda water this afternoon. Give them another good steel wool scrubbing. Then look for pin stock and handle material. I don't know what i should do for my first one. Bolsterless? Barehead end, one bolster? Copy what was there first? Stag? Wood? Synthetic? Ivory? G10?
What do you guys think? Let me know.
Thanks
Willy

[orvet]

Now that you mention it I have seen some dark spots on some of the sheet celluloid on Imperial shell handle knives. However, it's not very common and you don't have the volume up celluloid that you have in a regular solid Celluloid handle. So the potential for damage I believe is much less with the sheets celluloid than a solid celluloid handle. The other thing to notice is that the Imperials do rust easily, compared to most solid frame knives. That had been my experience based on the volume of knives I see coming through my shop.


Kodos for rebuilding the shell handles. They are good knives but they have never been expensive knives. You probably won't get the value out of them that you put into the restoration effort, Simply because they are shell handles and everybody looks down their nose at them.