Speaking of Camillus Questions Another yellow one

[testcase]

found its way into my pocket today.
She is a little worn, and someone took a grinder to her blade and the markings are all but gone, but she defiantly has the earmarks of a Camillus. I just don't know what patern she is.

Can anyone clue me in. I am growing fond of these little yellow sweethearts.

[knifeaholic]

The yellow slim trapper is a Queen...no tang stamp means 1960's (they etched the blades but no tang stampings).

[testcase]

The yellow slim trapper is a Queen...no tang stamp means 1960's (they etched the blades but no tang stampings).

OK! I assumed there once was a tang stamp because there is what looks like an "A" where I usually see "USA" on the Camillus blades.
I guess back to the books for me lol!

[Mountainwind]

It has the same frame as a Camillus number 29 jack knife, except the 29 had two blades. So I would say a single blade jack knife made in or before the early 70s.
Model not known at this time.

[justold52]

I am growing fond of these little yellow sweethearts. testcase said.


LOOKS like the compation is growing.

[knife7knut]

This is a Camillus #35 that has suffered "celluloid disintegration". Had an old Robeson swing guard with yellow scales that did the same thing only just on one side.Still trying to figure that one out.

Dug this out of my "segregated" pile today.Think I'm going to soak it in solvent and see if it will clean up.If so I'll take a shot at re-handling it.

BTW that degradation took only about 2 months.

[gmusic]

OH MY..................................

[jonet143]

rust never sleeps! cel gassing is the most aggressive of all. once started, there is no stopping.

[knife7knut]

UPDATE:

After soaking the knife in AeroKroil for a day,I removed it from the bag and proceeded to clean up the outside.The blade corrosion appeared to be halted(at least for the present)but the scales seemed to be deteriorating more rapidly.

Using an old blade,I scraped off the rust and then used some 220 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper to remove the rest.Normally I use this paper with AeroKroil and gradually work up to 600 grit paper.The bolsters were scraped and sanded and then polished with Mother's Mag Wheel Polish.

I then proceeded to remove the scales to see how much damage the brass liners had incurred.A lot of green residue covered the scales which readily wiped off(probably due to the soaking in oil).A bit more scraping and polishing and the surfaces were reasonably well cleaned.

Upon inspecting the liners,it was found that a small but significant crack was emanating from the region of the back spring rivet and has spread nearly half way across the liner.

On other knives I have that have deteriorated similarly,it seems that the corrosion vigorously attacks the brass and destroys it in short order.This happened on a Novelty Cutlery Co.letter opener knife as well as the Buck Creek knife shown previously and a couple others.In one the stainless steel blades were like new but the brass liners had literally disintegrated.

On one Robeson I have,the pile side scale was completely destroyed while the mark side shows no evidence of deterioration whatsoever.

[Hukk]

Always remove degraded celuloid from the knife. I just read several Material Safty Data Sheets that indicate that the primary corrosive gasses are likely to be Hydrogen Cyanide and Oxides of Nitrogen. The more common ones would be Nitric Acid (NO) and Nitrous Oxide (N2O)(dinitrous oxide)

Nitric Acid and Hydrogen Cyanide are very corrosive.

I used Google to search the chemical names and Material Safty Data Sheets of Celluloid and Oxides of Nitrogen. Search those 2 names and that's why cellulod can destroy a knife quickly.

Also a solid piece of celluloid can auto-ignite at 165 C and in a degraded form, as low as 100 C or 212F.

A solution of hydrogen cyanide in water is called hydrocyanic acid. Hydrogen cyanide is a colorless, very poisonous, and highly volatile liquid that boils slightly above room temperature at 26 °C (78.8 °F).

I suspected Nitric Acid would be one of the major players, but I finally looked up the chemical compositions and breakdown.

[knife7knut]

Thanks for the Heads-up on that HUKK;I'll check out those MSDS's. I wasn't aware of the self ignition properties.I work with a lot of paint and solvents and am very conscious of their related problems.I used to use turpentine until I found out that turp soaked cotton rags are the most combustible materials around.If not deprived of an oxygen source,they spontaneously combust readily.I got rid of ALL my turpentine products several years ago.All my other chemicals are stored in (drum roll please..........) an old refrigerator! One of the best storage facilities available usually for free.They don't even have to work;just seal off the air efficiently.I also use surplus ammo boxes to transport smaller amounts of solvents I normally use(odorless mineral spirits,wax and grease remover and brush cleaner which is mostly MEK and acetone.).You can NEVER be TOO careful with chemicals.

[Hukk]

I started with celluloid (aka nitro-cellulose) and worked from there.

The auto ignition surprised me but then I do recall hearing about a fire at Camillus, I believe it was. Of course the chemical toxicites are minute in quantity but when I see those temperatures on celluloid, it tells me to use fresh belts when working with celluloids. If an old belt is used, can it build up enough heat to start the breakdown?

Buffers can generate heat also onto the surface being buffed, is that heat enough to start a celluloid breakdown?

Since celluloid breakdown in knives is so random it would seem to point to a human interface element - that is who's doing the work on the knives, different in every company.

So, while I got answers, it gave me even more questions. Since celluloid is handled by humans by shaping and buffing, what part does that play in celluloid breakdown, since it's so random, even from the same batch, it appears to me to be a very BIG variable if I were examining a most probable cause.

Here is a Picture of a 2005 Bulldog Saddlehorn that I got directly from Parker's late in 2005. Look at it already! YES, the handles are off, NOW.

[Sauconian]

Hmmm....that's a nice piece of spalted maple too, Hukk !

Oh, yeah....the topic.

I've been thinking too that something we do triggers the start of cell breakdown. How we store them, what we put on them.

But from what I've been reading, it seems to be self- accelerating as well.

Maybe Hukk, someone with a chemical bent could think of something strongly alkali to put on our cell knives occasionally, to neutalize the initial acid effluence ?

Fran

[knife7knut]

Chemical interactions can be VERY dangerous! Reminds me of back in the early 60's when drag racers who were running nitromethane decided to do some experimenting with other fuels(chemicals)in search of even more power.

One of the chemicals they fixated on was hydrazine and it's close relative aniline.Aniline is a component of a lot of synthetic dyes whereas hydrazine is a component of rocket fuel.Used by Germany in WWII in conjunction with hydrogen peroxide to fuel the V-2 rockets.

Problem was:Nitromethane is an oxygen bearing fuel which is capable of burning literally in a vacuum or at the least without an external oxygen supply.(As an aside.nitromethane is also the only known solvent that can be used to separate pieces connected with cyanoacrylate(super glue)adhesives).
Hydrazine is a so-called,"oxygen scavenger" in that it's latent heat value increases dramatically in the presence of oxygen.There are several other down sides to it;namely it can be lethally toxic if the fumes are inhaled and it becomes extremely corrosive;especially to non ferrous metals(aluminum in particular)when exposed to water.
The really serious part is if you mix(or attempt to mix)an oxygen bearing chemical with an oxygen scavenger you wind up with a crude(and extremely unstable)form of nitroglycerin which can and has spontaneously exploded.
Fortunately these chemicals are very strictly controlled(for obvious reasons).
I am not a chemist by any stretch but that is why I am fascinated by why celluloid degenerates.There seems to be a high degree of randomness to the process.I would love to figure out why.

[orvet]

A warning on MEK;
It is one of a hand full of chemicals that can penetrate the skin from contact and cause liver damage. I used to use it to remove dried paint in spray equipment. It worls great for that, just keep it off your skin.

Dale

[jonet143]

poison i tell ya, poson! hey i think any petroleum based product should be kept away rom your cel knives.

[Hukk]

poison i tell ya, poson! hey i think any petroleum based product should be kept away rom your cel knives.

I agree, I have a silicon based lube on the blades only but the saddlehorn looks like there is lube all over, it wasn't. It was 100% dry when the scales were removed. That's what the scales broke down to, doesn't look like waterfall at all. This is the only one that did this, I have others, same pattern, all 2005, same celluloid, and they are OK. My son used one this summer for a project.

[testcase]

I am growing fond of these little yellow sweethearts. testcase said.


LOOKS like the compation is growing.

I do like the yellow ones!

[testcase]

So after reading and re-reading all the post on this site about celluloid, I am still confused.
Is Delrin celluloid and prone to this breakdown?

[jonet143]

no, not cel, delrin, an acetal resin from formaldehyde, is a polymer invented by dupont and patented in 1956. much more stable. earlier formulations could schrink a little but i think that has been addressed.

btw, i'm not a chemist, i just play one on tv!

[testcase]

This one on fleabay caught my eye, looks like it is starting to out gas....

The link to the auction

http://cgi.ebay.com/camillus-yellow-22- ... dZViewItem