Question about "Damascus", " Wootz" &

[dewman]

After seeing several programs on T.V about the famous Japanese Samurai swords, the genuine Damascus steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel) swords of the Middle East highly coveted by those who traveled the trade routes in the Middle Ages
and today's "Pattern Welded' steels, I'm a bit confused.

If I've done my homework correctly, "pattern welded" steel is for cosmetic effect only and probably wouldn't enter into this equation.

I guess my question comes down to this....if you had to go into battle against a foe who was wearing the armor of the day during which these two types of metals were considered superior to all others, which would you choose and why?

[Savage1]

I am no authority on Damascus steel, not even close, but I've read plenty on it and many times have read that many modern authorities believe 'MOST' not all modern damascus is more for looks not use [some is soft, some doesn't sharpen, some is brittle and breaks or doesn't hold an edge]-so to answer your question-I'd use the older or ancient damascus or Samurai in battle...not the modern.

[brucegodlesky]

Put it in this perspective:
If you have a choice in blade steels for 2 knives. One is a high carbon/ low or no carbon OR a high carbon/high carbon blade. Which will give better performance?
I think where the cosmetic issue comes in is, I really don't think the mosaic patterns will have as much strength as traditional patters. JMO

[justold52]

Here is my 3 cents worth.

If my life depended on the steel of a knife I would choose a SOG fixed blade knife with the best steel they offer...

I have asked this before and never had a good answer.

IF we have so many kinds of every day users, then why is it none are Damascus steel blades ?

From what I under stand Damascus steel is mostly just for looks like art.

[brucegodlesky]

Instead of just reading about pattern welded blades, try using one for 6 monthss then make an informed determination.

[justold52]

Instead of just reading about pattern welded blades, try using one for 6 monthss then make an informed determination.

Very good idea you have. Now you have that job and let us all know what you have to say after 6 mo.

[Hukk]

Yep, a well made Damascus (pattern welded) blade can take your finger clean off. 1095 carbon steel and 15N20 Nickel steel make a good combination. One that came out really well was a piece of Delbert Ealy Damascus Steel made from 0-1, L-6, and pure nickel. There is a lot of good makers around the world.

Wootz and Damascus steel (or pattern welded steel) have a long history with the processes being lost and "rediscovered" every few centuries for a couple thousand years.

That pretty steel can tear you up and has held up in many battles. I do like to carry a pattern welded blade now and then.

I'm with Bruce on this one, IMO Mosaic Damascus is not likely to be as strong as pattern welded steel. I don't think people carry Damascus as an EDC because it costs more. Some Damascus I've seen is around $15.00 an inch for the billet that is 1/8" x 1". Around $20.00 if it is stainless.

Pattern welded steel is an art to make, but I'll happily use it any and every day because it WILL hold up. Bum Rap there.

There is also thought out there that a forged blade is superior to one done with stock removal due to how the formation of carbides differ on a blade going in and out of a forge.

[brucegodlesky]

I've been carrying one for 2 yrs now. Everyday. As a matter of fact, I've field dressed 3 deer in the last 2 weeks with it.
It's just dirty damascus made from bandsaw blade, banding material and L6 bandsaw blade. My son-in-law and I made the billet up and I made us each a knife . He carried his on his last tour in Iraq.

[Duffy]

I have asked this before and never had a good answer.

IF we have so many kinds of every day users, then why is it none are Damascus steel blades ?

From what I under stand Damascus steel is mostly just for looks like art.

I asked a guy once about why he didn't carry any of his damascus bladed knives. He replyed: The blades will turn darker than carbon steel and then the blades wont look like damascus anymore. They'll just look like plain ol' carbon steel. Who knows

[dewman]

I've been carrying one for 2 yrs now. Everyday. As a matter of fact, I've field dressed 3 deer in the last 2 weeks with it.
It's just dirty damascus made from bandsaw blade, banding material and L6 bandsaw blade. My son-in-law and I made the billet up and I made us each a knife . He carried his on his last tour in Iraq.

Just curious....but what did your son in law use his home made Damascus knife for in Iraq? Am I to understant that it was expected to hold up better than the G.I issued knives?

I think this thread has gotten completely off my originally intented question. What I meant to ask was....if you were transported back in time....and had to fight one of the warriors of the day given they were dressed in the amour of the time, with the steel available then (Genuine Damascus....made in the Middle East) or the steel used in the Samurai swords of Japanese manufacture, which would you chose....and why?
I'm not talking about an EDC, a knife used for dressing game, a "pretty drawer queen" with fancy pattern welded steel or sort of short fixed blade or folding knife. I'm talking about an all out, kick a$$ fighting sword! Which one would you BET YOUR LIFE ON?

[El Lobo]

JMO.....

Damascus steel is pattern welded steel made only in Damascus.
All other pattern welded steels are just that, made somewhere else.

Pattern welded steels are, for the most part, strong, ductile, and very effective for almost anything the average human would use a knife for.

Seems like you guys are making WAY too much out of the idea that it is brittle, weak, or some lesser steel.

Bill

P.S.
KEN,
SOG doesn't make knives, I don't believe...they have them made on contract. IMO, there are many, many equal or better choices for "Last Ditch" knives. John Greco's knives come to mind for one. JMO.

EDITED for clarity of thought, and because I didn't really mean to belittle SOG, who provides a good product.

[justold52]

Kool I did NOT see these before. Thank you a bunch.

http://www.grecoknives.com/

I was talking through my AAPK hat when I said that. But I do think Sog have super production knives. If I was lost in the woods I sure would fell better with a Sog knife at my side. I doubt if I would take one of Grecok's knives with me in the woods...

[Hukk]

I'm talking about an all out, kick a$$ fighting sword! Which one would you BET YOUR LIFE ON?

Hands down modern day steel using the same methods or processes. We know a lot more about steels and carbides wether chromium or vanadium carbides. Austenitizating, Hardening, Tempering both heat and cryogenically, microstructures including grain size, martensite, particles and IMPURITIES. A lot can be gathered by a simple cross section (destroys blade) under a SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope).

I don't mean to take anything away from the old Samurai swords of Japanese, but I believe we wax rather poetic about these swords, because they were amazing for their time and still are. However not all iron or iron deposits are created equal. Their processes were more crude than we have now, we can actually use powdered metalurgy technology so that every grain of steel in the blade is EXACTLY the same. In making wootz the process eliminates most of the impurities that can weaken a blade.

In making todays sword we know more of how and why the processes worked, the old masters did not and could not know if impurities is why a sword failed - the one's we never hear about. Therefore we can control the steel more, we can do a failure analysis. The old masters would make a sword and follow a process exactly the same each time. By and large it worked quite well as we do have specimens that are hundreds of years old.

Over time we have lost the process many times in the last couple thousand years alone. What started in India, blades made in Damascus, blades made in China and Japan, you can bet not all of these were exactly the same.

Good swords were made following a process step by step with no variables. Variables usually made a bad sword, salt water quench can be tough on a blade. They did quite well but had no ability to optimize the steel.

Through modern technology we can watch and know variables and what results we WILL have. We also CAN optimize the steel to it's FULLEST extent, know exactly where that point is, BECAUSE - It can vary from batch to batch of 1095 where heat treating can be tweaked to get the optimum performance. That's why we buy 100 LBS of the stuff at once. So when we go to heat treat it, it will perform exactly the same each time. We want the 100 LBS to be from the same batch.

I don't know that GI issued knives are all that good. If they were, why would so many knifemakers be involved in make a knife for a soldier programs and send knives to Iraq for FREE?

JMO.....
Damascus steel is pattern welded steel made only in Damascus.
All other pattern welded steels are just that, made somewhere else.
Pattern welded steels are, for the most part, strong, ductile, and very effective for almost anything the average human would use a knife for.
You guys are making WAY too much out of the idea that it is brittle, or some lesser steel.
Bill

I agree Bill, there is some great steel made in N and S America and Europe. There is a ton of offshore junk coming from India and Pakistan. It is tinny and I sent a billet back. I don't do business with them anymore. JUNK!!! Not worth the effort.

You ask a 100 people on this and will get 100 variations. The old Samurai swords of Japan, 100's of years old is like comparing apples and oranges but todays steels are vastly superior and as a result a properly heat treated and tempered blade pw or 10xx series is what I'd take any day of the week.

[dewman]

That answered my question to the "T". Thanks for the explaination. Much appreciated.

Next time I have some dang Samurai sneakin' up my hill in one of them funny lookin' "armor" suits and the halloween mask, I'll call YOU. AND, I expect you to come save my butt pronto!

[brucegodlesky]

Hukk, good response. You are very articulate. Dewman, next time a Samurai sneaks up on you, forget about the PW sword. Empty the Glock.
My son-in-law carried his as a neck knife, just an auxillary. He already had a workhorse I had made him.

[brucegodlesky]

We have some very good makers in this country who have revived the techniques of the ancients and are making swords that rival or better those of the ancients. JMO
Louis Mills, Mike Blue, John Adams, Howard Cark, Randall Graham, Al Pendray, just to name a few.

[knife7knut]

Here are some pictures of a knife blade in my collection dated to the mid 17th century.The pattern is a bit hard to see but it is there.The handle is walrus ivory and the inlay is gold.

[dewman]

Hukk, good response. You are very articulate. Dewman, next time a Samurai sneaks up on you, forget about the PW sword. Empty the Glock.
My son-in-law carried his as a neck knife, just an auxillary. He already had a workhorse I had made him.

Glock? Naw....I'll just send my wife out after him!
By the way....nice knife you made for your son-in-law. I'm sure he wore it proudly. My profound appreciation for his service.

[Sauconian]

k7K,

I was thinking how I'd like to visit that knife museum at Smoky Mt. .......but,............Could I just come to your house instead ?

Fran

[knife7knut]

k7K,

I was thinking how I'd like to visit that knife museum at Smoky Mt. .......but,............Could I just come to your house instead ?

Fran

Thanks for the kind words;I'll take that under advisement. Here's a picture of the whole knife with it's sheath and companion dagger(also damascus and ivory).The sheath is constructed of wood with a lizard type skin covering that is embossed and a copper end piece that is silver plated.
what threw me off on this was I thought silver plating was a relatively new process(electroplating is)until I had the knife appraised.Turns out plating with silver over copper is probably at least a thousand years old.

[dewman]

Magnificent piece of history. Thanks for posting it.

Dewey