Naval Dirk ?

[kootenay joe]

This is a well made attractive and rather unique older knife, 12 1/4" OAL with a 8 1/4" blade. The handle is a lovely piece of ivory, unsure if elephant or walrus. The guard is basically a half guard and does not look altered to me. All parts are 100% tight. A magnet does not stick to the guard, collar or pommel.
Any ideas as to age, origin or handle material ?
Have you seen a similar knife ?
Thanks for help.
kj

[Dinadan]

Wow Joe - that is a unique dirk. I know you say it does not look altered, but I still think it is. If I were guessing, I would say that none of the parts started out together. Maybe someone had a box of broken cutlass and sword pieces and put that dirk together to salvage something. Very cool weapon!

[knife7knut]

I also think this is a put together piece;the only question being WHEN it was done.Could be an older piece.The ivory looks like walrus tusk to me(not 100% sure).That guard has definitely been cut.If you look at the end there are two distinctly different pieces of metal making up the guard.If it were original you would never see that.The pommel doesn't look right either;plus that ribbed piece in front of the guard looks like an afterthought to cover up a gap between the guard and the blade.As an aside;on a lot of poorly constructed custom knives they will use solder to fill the gap there.A competent knifemaker will fit the guard closely enough that it doesn't require solder.
I've seen that blade shape somewhere before;looks Middle Eastern,possibly Indian.JMHO folks;your mileage may vary.

[kootenay joe]

Thanks for your posts. I am not upset at all by your assessments of it as an assembly of parts. My reason for posting is to find out these things.
Quote "That guard has definitely been cut.If you look at the end there are two distinctly different pieces of metal making up the guard"
I can see an oval ring of brass(?) on the short guard end. Is this what you are referring to ?
kj

[kootenay joe]

I don't really know what knives are encompassed by "Naval Dirk" but i think it refers to a self defense fixed blade carried by a sailor. In the time before airplanes there were many more ships plying the oceans and therefore more sailors. Were there knife 'makers' who specifically assembled old knife parts into dirks to sell to sailors ? Presumably these would be more affordable to a poor sailor than purchasing a new Wostenholm, J. Rodgers, etc.
kj

[knife7knut]

Quote "That guard has definitely been cut.If you look at the end there are two distinctly different pieces of metal making up the guard"
I can see an oval ring of brass(?) on the short guard end. Is this what you are referring to ?
kj

In picture #7 there appears to be an inner piece of metal that is oval shaped;possibly steel to help reinforce the guard itself.The fittings also look to be made of copper and plated silver.
The plating of copper with silver has been done for probably a thousand years or more. It is not an electroplating operation but rather heating the silver until it is molten and then immersing the copper in the melt. As copper has a much higher melting point than silver this can be accomplished. I found out about this when researching an ancient Persian dagger I had been given. The tip of the sheath was made of copper and silver plated. The knife dates to the mid 17th century.

[kootenay joe]

I see this oval ring of 'copper' on the end of the short guard. If the guard was cut through to shorten it then the inner copper should be the entire oval, not just a thin ring of copper around the silver.
I am not doubting or debating. I am trying to understand what i am seeing but so far cannot understand this oval copper ring on end of short guard.
kj

[terryl308]

kJ, Your dirk looks a little odd with the single guard being left on top and the blade doesn't fit very well in the front of the guard. Having worked with both types of ivory, I believe your handle is elephant ivory. Walrus ivory has a a "cracked ice" appearance that may or maynot show up on the outside. So to tell for sure you would have to look at the handle from the end, either way I like it! My opinion is that is was probably made from a short sword. Terry

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Terry. I have seen far worse blade/guard fit on production knives so i had not seen this as a 'problem'. A good thing is that the blade is completely tight. Even with force i cannot get even a hint of movement by trying to rotate the blade while holding the handle.
Consensus is unanimous: assembly of various parts with a modified blade from a short sword, a custom knife of sorts.
The maker must have been rather proud of it to add such a fine large piece of ivory (which i too think is elephant).
I like this knife as do most who see it and it does not disappoint in hand with good balance and a natural fit giving a 'quick' or 'fast' feeling.
So, nice knife, feels good and beautiful ivory, but is it worth much ? Production knives can be assigned a value range. Same for full custom although more difficult to price. But 'semi-custom' knives are often accorded value of just above a fake.
What would you pay for this knife ? I am NOT trying to sell it. I want to know what value experienced knife collectors assign to it.
kj

[PCwizard]

Original or not that is a very nice dirk, thanks for showing it.

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Gary. I called it a "dirk" but i am not sure of what knife styles are encompassed under "dirks". Maybe it just means a fixed blade carried by a sailor for self defense ?
kj

[Dinadan]

So, nice knife, feels good and beautiful ivory, but is it worth much ? Production knives can be assigned a value range. Same for full custom although more difficult to price. But 'semi-custom' knives are often accorded value of just above a fake.What would you pay for this knife ? I am NOT trying to sell it. I want to know what value experienced knife collectors assign to it.
kj

I an not really an experienced collector, but here are my thoughts. Without provenance, the ivory is a killer, assuming it really is elephant ivory. Walrus ivory maybe not so much. If it is elephant ivory and I owned it, I would consider the monetary value $0.00 unless I had documented provenance. I would really enjoy owning such a piece: it is just that any sale would have to be to a person I know personally and even then I would be concerned about legal stuff. Like if he died and his heirs tried to sell it, I could still have legal troubles. So I say it is priceless - a weapon to be treasured but never to be sold.

[kootenay joe]

I think the opposite about ivory. I have ivory carvings that have been in the family for just over 100 years, collected by my grandfather in London before WW I. I also have many ivory handled knives, vintage, modern & custom. I continue to buy ivory handled knives and the price recently has increased sharply.
They might need to be traded/sold by an 'in person' deal. No point in flaunting things with online advertising. Is the recent ivory legislation now law ? or pending ? And is the interpretation unanimous among the legal experts ?
Regardless, there is far too much serious 'stuff' going on nationally and internationally for government or police to actually visit one's home and search.
I do hope that no new ivory comes into North America but i cannot see anything happening to the ivory that is already here.
Collectors will continue to own, trade, sell, and buy ivory handled knives.
kj

[Dinadan]

Joe - I no expert about ivory or much else. My reading of the new regulations is that selling elephant ivory within your state is legal as long as you can document that it was imported before 1990. Selling across a state line you need to be able to document that it is over a hundred years old. Like I said, I am not an expert. My take on this is that the Feds are trying to completely eliminate ivory trade to protect the elephants and if they unjustly punish a few folks along the way, the Feds are fine with that.

Anyway, talking about your dirk, it really is an interesting knife. I have this thought that after a battle like Lake Champlain there would have been a lot of broken swords and someone took some of those and created your dirk.

[Beechtree]

Thanks for Sharing it with us KJ. So really I am mostly just reiterating what others have already said, assembled from parts (looks to be recently to me), elephant ivory handle (Terry, great "cracked ice" description of Walrus) and the blade may be from a sword but I would say that it has a French style (slightly varying milage K7K but I see what you are saying) with the upswept point. Also, the scallop like ridges on the guard remind me of French cutlery and armaments. But I say these things recognizing that it is just a feeling rather than any concrete evidence.