WOW, Watch Out For Celluloid

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:01 pm

Well we all know how celluloid can ravage a knife.

How about this one.

Click on the pictures for a larger view, twice I think.

This is a 2005 Bulldog Saddlehorn with Waterfall celuloid handles. No fault of Bulldog Brand, just the cellulose nitrate maker.

This was stored indoors with a coat of rem-oil on the blades, nowhere else. The handles look wet with something but they are not.
This is a 2005 knife I bought about 1 1/2 years ago and it has befun to drlf destruct - ALREADY. This is the fault of the celluloid maker, Bulldog Brand knives likely received a shipment of celluloid material and had no idea that this would happen.

I wonder, what kind of handle material handle should I use to rework this saddlehorn with?

Pretty new, look at the bolster and shield.

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:14 pm

do you think they took the lowest bid on handle material?

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:32 pm

jonet143 wrote:do you think they took the lowest bid on handle material?

I don't know, but I boght a buch of knives to customize. These handles are coming off this weekend after I look at my other knives for waterfall celluloid. In the box that held this one, all the rest are ok, but I'll keep an eye out.

Bob W. · Post by **Bob W.** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:35 pm

I don't think it's predictable which celluloid will deteriorate quickly and which ones will still look new after 50 years. Many of these Bruckmann knives are celluloid, all were made before WWII, and none show any sign of deterioration or shrinkage:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... t08-07.jpg

I recall reading about a brand of knives (maybe Voyles?) that were made with a celluloid that crashed very quickly, to the point that there are very few if any original knives remaining.

There was a knife advertised recently at AG Russell's that was made with a modern imitation celluloid. A doctors pattern from Canal Street as I recall. Maybe more makers will switch to that sort of thing?

knife7knut · Post by **knife7knut** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:38 pm

jonet143 wrote:do you think they took the lowest bid on handle material?

No I don't think that was the problem at all. I have a number of celluloid handled knives;some that are fairly new but most that date to the early 20's and the deterioration seems to strike randomly.

I have knives that one side has deteriorated completely and the other side is untouched! All my celluloid knives are stored in a separate container and the precautions I take with them are:

I use NO OIL on them of ANY TYPE. I inspected them frequently(at least once a month).I use Mother's Mag Wheel Polish to clean off any corrosion that forms although once it has started,there is nothing I have found that will stop it.

All my knives are stored in a room that is not in the direct sunlight and is pretty much climate controlled(we have central air/heat).The majority are stored in an old linotype storage case made of oak(very dried out)with velvet liners.Every drawer(there are 24 of them)has several dessicant bags in them and those are changed every 3 months.The bags are recycled by drying them in the oven for about an hour at 200 degrees.

I acquired a knife awhile back that had mint condition stainless steel blades and the celluloid handles had corroded the backspring and the brass liners to the point they had broken in half.I keep it as a reminder of how corrosive celluloid can be.

I wish I had an answer as to why this occurs with such randomness.

arathol · Post by **arathol** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:02 am

Just a guess, but I would say that the deterioration was probably triggered by the Remoil, which contains petroleum based solvents that can cause celluloid to start decaying. It doesn't have to come in direct contact, just the small bit of fumes caused by the slow evaporation of the oil will do it in time, especially in an enclosed space like a knife box.
Deterioration isn't always random and can sometimes be traced to an underlying cause. A knife that has one side gone and the other intact may have been on a display board at some point, allowing prolonged exposure to sunlight on one side while keeping the other covered. Petroleum oil is another major trigger. Sometimes just an oily fingerprint or getting wiped with an oily rag can do it. Celluloid doesn't like any sort of petroleum products in any form. Color seems to have something to do with the process also. Dark scales or scales with lots of color seem to have less problems, probably something to do with how much and what sort of filler was used to acheive the look. More filler seems to mean less problems. Celluloid knives need to be stored alone, in a dark spot with good ventilation. Sunlight can start the process, and good air movement can carry away any harmfull fumes before damage is done.
Once it starts the knife is done for, there no way to stop it. The deterioration process is self feeding, producing acid fumes that will in turn cause the process to accelerate, producing more fumes to further destroy the celluloid at a faster rate as well as corroding an steel items nearby.

steve · Post by **steve** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:19 am

i always use metal glo polish and rub the whole knife down with it good and then take a clean cloth and wipe it all off good and clean. it really shines the handles as well as the blades and bolsters and ive never had any problems with my celluloids gassing, cracking, etc.........knock wood. i dont have many celluloid knives but the ones i do have are about 40 years old and i dont know if it has anything to do with it, but it does seem safe.

justold52 · Post by **justold52** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:47 am

arathol I am going to agree with you.

I just use Ren-Wax and never polish or oil them.

I even store them with the blades open all the way.

Ringmaster · Post by **Ringmaster** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:15 am

I'm with Steve - have used Metal-Glo on my celluloids for about 20 years - no problems yet. Just lucky, I guess. I will admit to using a little Nyoil on the joints, tho'.

BTW, I found some Metal-Glo/Simichrome stuff, in Walmart, the other day. Sold under the trade name of MAAS, it's the same stuff, for about $3.50 a tube.

Lucky JR

Savage1 · Post by **Savage1** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:23 am

Arathol hit on something that was near to what I was wondering-if one side of a knife was affected and the other not, could it be the side it was laying on or what it was laying on that activated the celluloid?

arathol · Post by **arathol** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:35 am

could it be the side it was laying on or what it was laying on that activated the celluloid?

That is a posiibility also. The cardboard used for displays is acidic. A celluloid handle thats in prolonged contact with cardboard may eventually begin to break down. This also pertains to any paper wrapping and cardboard boxes unless specified as acid free.

knife7knut · Post by **knife7knut** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:16 am

Savage1 wrote:Arathol hit on something that was near to what I was wondering-if one side of a knife was affected and the other not, could it be the side it was laying on or what it was laying on that activated the celluloid?

Good point.I normally store my celluloid knives standing on the spine to prevent just such a problem.I've lost a couple of really nice Novelty Cutlery Co. knives where one side deteriorated completely and the other side was virtually untouched and I know that it had to have caused by me getting oil under the scale.

I have one United Boker Razor knife that has striped celluloid scales that started to rust but I have been applying the Mother's polish and though the rust comes back slightly the scales don't appear to be deteriorating.I check them at least once a month.

singin46 · Post by **singin46** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:47 am

It is such a random thing, believe me. I just went through it with brand new Harness Jacks of mine. The Candystripe and Tortoise shell seem to be fairing well but the Waterfall took a terrible turn in about 3 weeks this summer. I told my wife to keep an eye on them and she did look 1 day and BAM, it happened that quick. It is a shame but the risk you take with these beauties. Lets all do the rehandle shuffle, whatever that is.

JMI, Saddened46

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:51 am

singin46 wrote:It is such a random thing, believe me. I just went through it with brand new Harness Jacks of mine. The Candystripe and Tortoise shell seem to be fairing well but the Waterfall took a terrible turn in about 3 weeks this summer. I told my wife to keep an eye on them and she did look 1 day and BAM, it happened that quick. It is a shame but the risk you take with these beauties. Lets all do the rehandle shuffle, whatever that is.

JMI, Saddened46

I've seen an alternative to waterfall celluloid and it looks real close to it. Cant remember where I saw it, but it was a cutlers catalog.

singin46 · Post by **singin46** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:06 am

Thanks Hukk, I'm actually sending this 1 back to Queen for new scales. These 2 are still in new condition. Good thing, 1 is 1 of 2 on the Tortoise and 1 of 16 on the Candystripe. Waterfall is 1 of 2 as well, oh well. Just don't want to lose any more. Love these rare beauties.

Singin46