Knives with 3 notches on the handle

[jon_slider]

Thanks Knifeboy1

are you refering to the knife with 1" rule marks that Elvis posted? It is a very interesting knife for sure.

I hope you all had a great weekend. And if you have any orthodox jewish friends, I would welcome any info they may be able to contribute about the use of notches on old knives.

[PigSticker]

Here's one off E-bay with three notches don't think it's as old as the description but I noticed the three notches and figured I'd slap up the link
http://www.ebay.com/itm/19C-ANTIQUE-PRI ... 35bb45d9e1

[jon_slider]

Thank you very very much for the link to yet another knife with 3 notches. This one is being sold by someone in Bulgaria.
DESCRIPTION: Offered to you is this 19th century antique primitive folding knife with wooden handle. Size unfolded: 8”. Size of blade: 3”.

[Knifeboy1]

I used to own that Vulcan knife John - Should have kept it nice knife.

No the nice trapper with the nice marrow stag and three grind marks on the bolster.

[jon_slider]

> the nice marrow stag and three grind marks on the bolster

small world, I know who has it now, not me, but a great guy

that is the one that started me on this quest about the meaning of notches. Thanks for being part of my discovery process.

[1967redrider]

Great info, thanks for starting this thread, Jon.

[jon_slider]

ThankYou 1967redrider!

I'm so glad no one is offended here. The topic was banned in another forum I've resigned from, for reasons I could not fathom

[jon_slider]

One more knife with notches on it. Just 3 little cuts on the pile side bolster on the spine side of the bolster. The tang stamp dates this Remington Barlow as being made between 1924-1933,
which is during Alcohol Prohibition.

No notches on the Mark side


Yes notches on the Pile side Bolster


a little closer


This makes a total of 7 different knives with notches on them, posted here so far.

[1967redrider]

Starting to take away the possibility of just a random occurrence. Wonder if some collector marked his knives this way? But then he would be hurting their value.

[Miller Bro's]

Sorry to say, I am not convinced these notches were put there to identify a knife used in food prep.

I have a Hebrew pocket knife which was used to prepare bread with, it is very large with genuine MOP handles that are inscribed with a Hebrew prayer, some of these had corkscrews as well to open a bottle of wine, see picture below.

The knife is high quality with nickle silver liners and with the addition of MOP scales could be washed and kept sanitary, some of the ones shown here would be hard to keep sanitary and are not large enough.

I have shown it to my Hebrew friends and here is what they had to say about it:

The words, in Hebrew, say: SHABBAT KODESH ,translated literally as Sabbath holy and translated into normal English: Holy Sabbath.
SHABBAT KODESH in Hebrew has fewer letters because written Hebrew uses very few vowels.
Vowels are “understood”, (sometimes indicated by assorted symbols not relevant here.)
SHABBAT is the word with 3 letters.

The Jewish Sabbath begins Friday night at sunset and lasts until Saturday evening.
My understanding is that these knives were made in the early 20th century & used by men who were traveling or away from home when the Sabbath came.
The knife would be used to slice the Sabbath bread, after making the blessing over bread to begin the meal.
I have 2 folding Sabbath knives that also have corkscrews for the Sabbath wine and also a contemporary Israeli Sabbath knife that doesn’t fold.
Since the Sabbath bread is so pretty, braided and glazed with egg yolk, our preference is not to cut it, but have everyone tear pieces off.

[jon_slider]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareve
"Halakha (Jewish law) forbids consuming mixtures of milk and meat, consuming milk and meat at the same meal, consuming dairy foods within a period of time after meat which varies by custom, and using the same dishes for both dairy and meat. Pareve foods accordingly can be consumed together with either dairy or meat."

Here are 3 knives with different colored handles
Red for Meat,


Blue for Milk (butter and cheese)


and Green for Pareve


These knives are for every day use, not specific to Sabbath. Here is another version





There is absolutely no doubt that Kosher Jews mark their utensils and cookware to keep meat utensils separate from those used for dairy. The only question that remains is whether the notched knives are marked for that reason.

http://www.hilleljuc.org/kosher_policy/
"All utensils designated for permanent kosher use must be marked. High temperature spray paint may be used, silver or serving utensils may be engraved or a permanent sticker may be applied."

Honestly though, I have not found anyone who can explain the notches on the knives Ive posted. Only the Buxdorf quote in the first post, addresses notches specifically. And though Hillel University mentions engraving, they dont mention 3 notches being the way to distinguish the milk utensils. I do not yet have any independent confirmation about notched knives being for Kosher clients. I have however found what to me are many examples of notched knives, that no one can explain, yet

[jon_slider]

UPDATE! I have found a Rabbi that is familiar with the practice of marking Milk knives with notches:

===
> “Yoreh Deah” section of the Shulchan Aruch, 89:4
“ It is customary in all of Israel (i.e. all Jews) to have two knives (i.e. one for meat dishes and one for milk dishes), and to mark one of them so that it will be distinguishable, and it is customary to mark the dairy one, and one should not deviate from the custom of Israel.”

> The untranslated Hebrew text of this section of the Shulchan Aruch is available at http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7 ... 7%A4%D7%98

> The Darkei Teshuva is a commentary on the Shulchan Aruch written by Rabbi Zvi Hirsh Spira (died 1913?) of Munkatch (a town in the Ukraine currently called Mukavetcho). 

> The Darkei Teshuva (89:55) writes (free translation):
“Know that the custom is to make three notches on the milk [knife], and see the Responsa ‘Adnei Paz’ there who wrote a reason for this custom of making three notches.”

> He is referring to the Responsa Adnei Pas written by Rabbi Efraim HaKehser published in Altona 1743, a scan of which is availble at http://www.hebrewbooks.org/633 .  In the omissions printed at the end of the book, page 39, he discusses why it is customary to make specifically three notches. 

> His final reason is that it corresponds to the three times that it is written in the Pentateuch not to cook a kid (goat) in it’s mother’s milk, which is the one of the Biblical sources from which the Talmud derives the prohibition of cooking meat and milk together.
 
Rabbi Mordechai Frankel
The Institute of Halacha at the Star-K
===

[Beechtree]

Very Interesting research Jon. Nice documentation regarding the use of three marks on milk knives in Jewish culture. I guess a harder point to prove is wether or not a specific set of three marks indicate a milk knife. Good job on the research and keep it up. If I find anything that can help, I will pass it along. This thread reminds me of a story my father would tell, about the chief of a head hunting tribe, I can't remember where, Borneo, Sumatra, Indonesia, could be any one of these or another. Apparently, it was customary to tattoo a ring around the finger for each head the warrior had taken. Well, the chief of this tribe, his whole hands were black up to the wrists, indicating that he had run out of room on the fingers and thus had to move up his whole hand

[jon_slider]

thanks for your comments, much appreciated

> I guess a harder point to prove is wether or not a specific set of three marks indicate a milk knife.

absolutely correct, I have no way of knowing any of the knives pictured are actually milk knives, it is only a possibility

I certainly would never have imagined the last knife I posted was a Milk knife, the marks are so small, had I not heard about the custom, I would have assumed it was just a personal mark of ownership

Time will tell if any more notched knives show up in the thread, I hope they do, as that is my primary interest in starting this thread, to find more knives with notches, and also to find someone who has first hand knowledge of making those marks on knives.

My latest curiosity is to find where the commandment to use 3 notches came from.

In the Old Testament, Abraham served God and two of his Angels meat and milk together, that was about 2000 BCE.
Genesis 18:8
"And he (Abraham) took butter (cream), and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them, and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat."

The next commentary reporting the marking of Meat and Milk utensils, just before Buxtorf in 1603, is in the Shulchan Aruch that was published in 1563 in Venice.

That leaves about a 3563 year gap during which the custom of separating Meat and Milk utensils evolved. Ive written to the Rabbi to see if there is any other reference for the origin of the current Kosher Custom of separating Meat from Dairy. I invite anyone with similar info to get in touch with me by email, so as not to stray too far off topic in this thread about notched knives.

For those of you with large knife collections, please check for notches, and post any knives you find with them here.

[Dragunski]

There is another class of Jewish knives that have an even scarier use.

http://circcentral.tripod.com/knives.html

[Dragunski]

They are beautiful, but they give me the willies.

[Knifeboy1]

His avitar is waynorth on bladeforums. Personal friend of mine. Charlie taught me most of what I know about knives.

[Capt. Farrel]

Very interesting thread! I will look out for knives with three notches.

[jon_slider]

Here is a Camillus with 3 notches that just went through Ebay.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-D1_z ... G_3240.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1xIi ... G_3241.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-46ul ... G_3243.JPG

here is the listing
http://tinyurl.com/lm9n6j6

and part of the description, plus my email to the seller asking if the owner was Jewish:

===

THIS KNIFE BELONGED TO AN OLD FRIEND THAT PASSED YEARS AGO…
THERE ARE THREE NOTCHES CUT INTO ONE SIDE OF THE METAL ON ONE SIDE OF THE HANDLE,I HAVE NO IDEA IF THESE WERE CUT INTO IT AT THE FACTORY OR SOMETHING HE DID….
----
Dear nicholsron1,

Hi, there is a Jewish custom of marking knives with 3 notches. By any chance was the owner Jewish?
thanks
Jonathan

- jon_slider

===
YES THERE WAS JEWISH FAMILY . RON

[Dinadan]

Jon - this is an interesting thread. Thanks for sharing your research. I do not recall ever coming across a knife with notches, but I will keep my eyes open.

[1967redrider]

So what about my 4 notched Russell?

[garddogg56]

OK this is wierd I recieved a Buck ..110.. from an old Journeyman which has three notches,so I saw this thread which I saw before and had forgotten so I called Mark up and he said for every 200lb+ buck he shot he notched his old gun and knife.Also I rememberd I got my grand daughter a girlscout knife that had three knotches on it WIERD

[jon_slider]

So what about my 4 notched Russell?

No idea, Im just posting pics as I find them

for every 200lb+ buck he shot he notched his old gun and knife.Also I rememberd I got my grand daughter a girlscout knife that had three knotches on it WIERD

cool! So at least one notched knife comes with a hunting explanation

thanks for sharing pics