Knives with 3 notches on the handle

[jon_slider]

Here is some background on notched knives that I am looking to learn more about.

If anyone has any other photos of knives with notches, please share

Knives with 3 notches, Jewish Fish Knives

Excerpt from "Synagoga Judaica" by Buxtorf
https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/corre/www/b ... chp26.html

" They mark the milk vessels with three special signs; they cut three notches in the wood, because the aforementioned verse occurs three times in the Law of Moses"....."Every Jew always carries two knives, one for meat, and one for cheese and fish. The latter is also marked with three notches..."

Below are two examples of knives with 3 notches. They actually have 3 sets of 3 notches. 2 sets of three on the Mark side of the knife, and one set of 3 on the pile side.

The first knife was made in Sheffield around 1891. The Second knife was made in Connecticut also around 1891, by cutlers originally from Sheffield. There was a Jewish population in Connecticut during that time, that continues to this day.

I hypothesize that some Connecticut Jews whose family originally lived in Northern Europe, were following the tradition described by Buxtorf, in the link above. That would suggest that knives with 3 notches would be owned by Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews. I am not suggesting that the Sheffield cutlers who made the knives, put the marks on them. I believe it was done by individuals who owned the knives.

This is not intended to be a criticism of any religion, I am only pointing out a cultural custom among Jews, to distinguish food implements that are used for meat, separately from those used on butter and fish. fwiw, The Buxtorf writing is hosted on a site owned by a Sephardic Jew that lives in America. I emailed asking if he had ever seen knives with 3 notches, or knew anything about the practice. He did not, nor has any other Jewish historian I have contacted so far.

If you have any other photos of knives with 3 notches, please share.

Thank You, and if this post is not appropriate to this site, and you can suggest any other good places to ask about notched knives, I would welcome your feedback.

3 marks on handle near pivot and 3 marks on the shield


3 marks on pile side head cap


3 Marks on Shield side scale, spring side near pivot end, and 3 marks on Shield side scale, blade side, near knife bare head. Plus one mark on Mark side center below shield, relevance unknown.




3 marks on pile side handle scale near bare head end.


and here is one with 4 notches, not sure if they serve the same purpose

[tjmurphy]

OK, what do you think? Camillus WWII era EO

and the reverse

[jon_slider]

> OK, what do you think?

thanks! I think you have a beautiful knife, but it does not have 3 notches. I will edit the title to be more clear about that.

[Iron Hoarder]

That would explain why I have a nearly new but very old Sheffield knife with three notches cut in the pile side scale. I've had a few others with the notches as well. I did wonder what the point of it was. Thanks for putting some light on that one for me.

[jerryd6818]

T.J. I think it's just some guy making simple marks as a way to identify the knife as his.

[jon_slider]

> I have a nearly new but very old Sheffield knife with three notches cut in the pile side scale. I've had a few others with the notches as well.

Winner! Thanks. Could you please post or email me photos of both scales. Im looking for any other marks.

> I think it's just some guy making simple marks as a way to identify the knife as his

very possible, but, notice I have posted 2 knives with 3 sets of 3 notches. More than coincidence maybe.

And now Iron Hoarder has posted yet another 3 notch pic, and mentions others..

in any case, please share any photos of knives with 3 notches, regardless of what the reason for them may be..

Thanks!

[Iron Hoarder]

There are no other marks anywhere on the knife. really rather irritating that those three are there since they turn what would have been a fairly good selling knife with a decent profit margin into a cheap knife since it is now considered damaged by collectors.

[Cutty]

Nice knives Jon and really cool info, maybe someone else will shed some light?


I believe Jerry was speaking of TJ's knife possibly being marked by an individual and not the three mark knives you've shown

[jerryd6818]

> I think it's just some guy making simple marks as a way to identify the knife as his

very possible, but, notice I have posted 2 knives with 3 sets of 3 notches. More than coincidence maybe.

As Cutty said, I was commenting on tjmurphy's knife.

[knife7knut]

Interesting post! Thank you for the reference;it makes for interesting reading.I learned something today.

[4ever3]

Thanks for the info! Learn something new every day.

[Elvis]

I sold a knife (I think to a forum member here) that had notches similar to the ones in TJ's knife. They were exactly 1" apart and there were also 1" marks on the blade. Since the marks were numbered on the handle, it was clear that it was intended for use as a ruler as well as a knife. I managed to find a few of the ebay pictures I took. How far apart are the marks on your knife Tom?

I think it may have been an old Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett OVB, but I'm not positive. Maybe the owner is still around and will let us know.

[313 Mike]

Very interesting stuff! First I've ever heard about it, like others have said, I learned something new today too!

Mike

[Colonel666]

Hi Jon! The bible (Old Testament) was an ancient way that many Jews don't exactly follow word for word anymore. Blood sacrifices on alters and fat burning, or live animal flesh offerings to the Lord are replaced by teachings offered in the New Testament. I don't generally talk religion much so please be kind to me? The pocketknives you are showing are not stainless steel so they will rust if you ate with them. Culinary grade or surgical stainless steel is used for sanitary reasons. The "Vulcan" mark shows a unique tempering process to harden the blade so it will keep an edge longer. Even CASEXX brand tempers twice (XX) and shows this as marking on the ricasso. Three times "heat-tempering" is much the same. Hope this gives you some possible clues!

[jon_slider]

Tjmurphy thanks for sharing the pics of your beautiful knife.

I wonder if the grooves in your hadle are equally spaced, for use as a 3" ruler like the fantastic example Elvis has posted.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your photos and ideas.

Iron Hoarder, sorry to hear your knife is considered damaged. I would still like to see a photo of the whole knife, and if you want to sell it I might be interested. Feel free to email me.

Colonel666 thanks for your thoughts. Fwiw, the first and second knives I posted were made around 1891, one in Sheffield, and one in Connecticut by Sheffield immigrants.

The blade material is high carbon steel, as used to this day in high quality cutlery including chef knives.

I agree stainless may be more sanitary, but it did not exist at the time. Even today many people use high carbon steel in preference to stainless. Properly maintained, it does not rust as you feared, even when used on food.

[Iron Hoarder]

I'll try and dig it out this weekend and get you some pictures. I can't find my full side ones of it. I'll send it all in a PM.

[tjmurphy]

The notches on my knife are not evenly spaced, probably just personalized for ID.

[Miller Bro's]

I think it's just some guy making simple marks as a way to identify the knife as his.

Me too

[1967redrider]

I think the notches on this old Russell denote kills. But kills of what?

[jon_slider]

I think the notches on this old Russell denote kills. But kills of what?

Wow! 2 different Russels with the same placement of 4 notches on the mark side scale, forward of the center pin.


This one posted by jon_slider:



And 1967 redrider's knife:



I bet some old codgers grandson in Sheffield knows what those notches mean.

Seems way more than coincidence of 4 kills on 2 different knives.

Here's a hypothesis. Based on the Buxtorf account of Jewish marks to distinguish meat utensils from butter and fish utensils, maybe Sheffield cutlers offered knives in pairs. A notched one and a plain one.

Double sale for Kosher clients.

[peanut740]

Redrider,maybe they were killing time.

[philco]

Redrider,maybe they were killing time.

[1967redrider]

Sounds like a possibility.



jon_slider, just a thought on our Russell barlows; any chance the notches were put on because the bone handle cracked when it was pinned? I noticed that both of our knives have cracks at the center pin on the mark side. The pile side is not cracked on mine, more pocket worn than the mark side handle, it almost looks like butterscotch candy.

[jon_slider]

> any chance the notches were put on because the bone handle cracked when it was pinned? I noticed that both of our knives have cracks at the center pin on the mark side.

I am not sure, certainly possible. Will share any new info I get. So far it seems there are a number of variations on the notches, some are 3 notches, some are 4. The two Russels have 4 marks on the Mark side scale, the first 2 I posted have 3 notches on the mark side scale spine side of handle, plus 3 more mark side, blade side, plus 3 more on the pile side. And the one posted by Iron Hoarder has 3 marks on the pile side scale.

So far I have confirmation that Orthodox Jews definitely separate the meat cutlery from milk cutlery, and use marks, colors, or even separate drawers to tell them apart. Im still hoping to hear more back from Sheffield's current Jewish cutlers. I have a friend in England that may follow up in person.

Thanks for the discussion, and any more notched knife pics very much appreciated.

[Knifeboy1]

I used to own that Vulcan knife John - Should have kept it nice knife.