Split Backspring Whittler?

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:42 pm

Hmmm...I just learned what a split backspring whittler is...and love how they look. I would love to try to fabricate one from parts.

Have any of you tried to make a s/b/w from conventional springs? I'm thinking that it might be possible to force the pin stock through the holes in the springs, without redrilling them at an angle...make sense?

Anybody tried this? Or am I just looking to give myself a headache. Keep in mind that the product of this Frankenstien job will be for EDC and doesn't have to be perfect....it just has to cut.

Cheers,
J

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:34 pm

there is always a slight possibility that it can be done. I have thought of it in the past, but never planned to try it any time soon. If you have the spacer with the correct taper, it "shouldn't" be too difficult of a job, though I may be overlooking something. I wouldn't hold my breath of forcing the pin stock through, it'd be better to ream it out. Hmmmm, i've got an idear now

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:58 pm

let me know how that idear' goes now....do you think the reamer will break?

I was thinking about making the tapered shim, sandwiching the two springs and the shim together and they trying to drill/abrade an aligned hole.....but I know that this will be a beetch. I guess I could always just make two new springs. That's probably easier in the long run as I can then get the right bend to them too.

J

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:27 pm

Since the backsprings are not as hard as the blades & think you could ream them or just drill them out oversize at the proper angle. I think I would try & make new liners out of brass sheet.

You may be able to bend the pins. I have had nickle silver pins bend on me when assembling a knife.......totally by accident. Of course it threw off the whole alignment of the knife.

Let us know how it works,
Dale

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:02 pm

Hey, MM & Diligence...
You might like to try this. This G. Crookes & Co., Sheffield, Split backspring whittler(1836-1856) has what looks like a one piece, split backspring. Since it is one piece, it doesn't require a divider. Wish it were in better shape. Ivory handles. I'd like to know what the three silver pins are, adjacent to the structural pins are, on the front handle. They are just set into the ivory, They don't really serve any purpose. Any ideas???
If one of you guys wanting to build one of these would like to see it, I will send it to you(of course I would like to have it back in a reasonable time).
GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR PROJECT. Please keep us updated on it.
...CCBill...

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:08 pm

That is a very neat design, trying to make that spring will surley make you pull all of your hair out (if you have any left by now)

. That's a nice knife-gotta love that old ivory

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:12 pm

bill, that is a true split spring whittler. if it has a tapered center liner, it's simply a whittler.

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:01 am

This brings up a question. When did they start making wharncliffe whittlers? This is the earliest example I have ever seen. Anybody got an older one? How DID they split the backspring on this knife?
...CCBill...

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:12 am

the dogleg pattern predates the wharncliffe blades. there is a story that lord wharncliffe commissioned joseph rogers & sons to make the knife configuration in the 19th century.

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:10 am

Nice knife Bill

I just love those old Wharnies!

Dale

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:12 am

Ok, I've got a seahorse whittler on the way, a good buddy of mine donated it to science. If all goes as planned it will be the worlds first splitback seahorse whittler

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:56 pm

Okay - I'm confused. I thought the Seahorse pattern was already a split backspring?

Or is it like this:

Two springs, with a tapered divider = whittler where the large blade is activated by both springs.

Split spring, with no divider - like the ivory from CCBill.

I was originally thinking only about two springs with a divider.

wow - I need to learn so much.

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:45 pm

Hey CCBIll, Great old knife.

Here is my 2p worth. A true split-spring is made form one thick spring that is divided at some to form a Y. All modern whitlers are not split spring but have two springs, sometimes separated at one end with a wedge and sometimes not. I have no idea how to produce a real split spring.

s-k

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:08 pm

the split spring is cut with a hammer and wedge while it is very hot.

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:42 pm

Maybe you could fake a split spring like this.

Take two larger springs, sandwich them and grind them down so that one end is as wide as your largest blade, and grind the other end down so that each spring is only as wide as each small blade.

Maybe put a small spacer (.002 nylatron washer?) between the small blades and go to town with liners, scales, etc...

am I nuts?, (can you read this scan?)

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:10 pm

Interesting idea. I know nothing about making knives but, based on observation, two spring whittlers employ one of two or maybe a combination of designs. 1) the springs are a constant width but sandwiched together at the master end and separated by a wedge at the small blade end. 2) sandwiched together throughout but tapered from thicker at the smaller blade end to thinner at the master blade end. However, at the master blade end, the two springs together are thicker than one by itself....if that makes sense. This seems to be the opposite of what you are proposing in your diagram, where you have the springs thicker at the master end and smaller at the other end. I am not implying any judgement of your proposal by this observation. It is hard to judge from CCBills photo but it looks like the small blade end is wider than the master blade end. If so, one starts with a tapered spring and the thick end of the spring is the one that is split. Sorry for the rambling. ::blah:: ::blah:: s-k

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:25 pm

case uses two springs of equal width on their seahorse, with the blade width filling the allotted space. henckels tapers their two springs on the outside to make a taper from the two thinner blades to the larger main blade. look at several brands and you can see the different approaches they use to achieve the blade configuration. true split springs were and are difficult to make and therefore the change to two springs was also more economical.

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:53 pm

Here is a Boker I once had, that sort of shows what S-K is describing regarding separate, tapered backsprings. The narrow end supports the master blade...the larger end the coping and pen blades.

Interesting discussion.

Bill

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:57 pm

Thanks El Lobo. Here is an older Sheffield whittler with the two springs of constant width separated by a brass wedge.

s-k

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:44 pm

Good points all. I should clarify that my proposed layout would use two existing thicker springs, with spring pivot holes already drilled. I didn't want to have to try and redrill the hole, at an angle to the long axis of the spring.

I was trying to cheat, and allow myself to be able to bodge together something workable. By using thick springs and then bringing them down to suit a large thick blade and two thin blades, the result would be to end up with a combined spring thickness as thick as the large blade at one end, but with the opposite end thinner to accomodate the coping and pen blades on a single spring each....clear as mud?

whew - I think I just confused myself

edit - I just looked at the photos again and I know I understand...the thin part of the knife contains the main blade, and the thick end contains the dual blades....so flip my drawing around....then it works.
j

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:02 pm

from what i have seen the thicker end accomodates the two smaller blades. are you trying to build from "scratch" using blades from another whittler, ie. thick main blade and thinner secondary blades?

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:16 pm

I think the the total width of the springs at the small blade end has to be greater than the width at the master blade end. That is why they either taper from thick to thin or are separated by a wedge. Your diagram has it the other way around. Not only do you have to accomodate the two tangs but there needs to be a enough space between the small blades to allow the master to open/close.

s-k

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:53 pm

Yes guys - I had it backwards. Silly me.

The whole reason for this discussion is that I have a friend who wanted a "whittler" for his son, but he wanted me to use parts from other knives to make it. I could attempt it from scratch, making springs and blades and such, but using existing parts seems like a better idea for me - currently anyway.

On your split spring knives without a tapered spacer, is there some sort of other spacer between the small blades, or do the tangs rub against each other?

My franken-whittler will likely consist of small pen blades from old Camillus Scout-type knives mixed with the main blade from a Camillus electrician's knife, re-profiled to suit.....why you ask, well, that's what's sitting in my tub of parts knives right now.

Good fun trying to solve problems not related to work!

J

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:19 am

You might try using the existing springs and shave them down from the outside with a file so they fit the main blade. You might have to make new liners and bolsters, (which really isn't that hard), to accommodate for the angle of the pin through the main blade where the liners & bolsters taper in. But I think it is doable. You wouldn't have to re-drill the rocker pin hole, if you started the taper in front of the rocker pin.

I am not sure I communicated it too clearly. But I think if you tapered the center liner & shaved down the outside of the two springs where they meet the main blade, then you could bend the new outside liners & bolsters in a bit to fit the shaved springs.

Just a thought off the top of my head.

Dale

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:56 pm

Dale - very clear explanation. I'm looking forward to trying this.

I agree that making new bolsters and liners will likely be required, and it is pretty easy. The hardest part I think will be getting the drill angle (or bending the liners and bolsters) lined up properly to prevent binding of the main blade.

still have to do some figuring on this one.

J

PS...glad to hear the surgery went well.

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Split Backspring Whittler?

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