Jigged Bone Handles

[Miller Bro's]

Someone called my attention to this thread over at another forum.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... l-End-Jack

I would like to hear your thoughts on the comments posted in that thread, some I find quite amusing.

[stockman]

I have been watching this thread on the other channel. I like the knife. I could be wrong, but it looks good to me. It seems that most knives do not cut muster over their.

[msteele6]

I'm at a loss to explain the objections to the bone on the OP knife. It seems to center around the color of the bone on the "bald spots" however, it seems to me to be completely natural that the color of the bone at the spot where it has to be faired into the bolsters would wind up as a lighter color than elsewhere on the knife.

I have thought that the dye, being unable to penetrate completely through the bone would show the lighter color when material was removed in order to match up to the bolster. This theory is validated somewhat by one of the pictures shown on the subject thread. One of the knives has a large broken area and if you look at it from the side you can see that the dye penetrates only a short distance into the bone. This would be consistent with my understanding of the nature of the lighter coloration on the "bald spots" (places on the handles that were finished down to match the bolsters)

[Miller Bro's]

Here is the knife that is being questioned.

These are some of the comments received;

Very pretty knife! But does anyone else think that bone looks a little strange? The jigging is cut way below the edges of the bolsters and the shield. The coloring is kind of mottled; but there's not much much wear apparent. I would suspect that someone replaced it or rejigged and dyed the old bone.

I think that bone looks a lot strange.

There is a lot of this very same bone on eBay.

All of it pristine, unused, even on well used knives.

And on many different brands, from many different places and times.

And it was all colored ON THE KNIFE, so the bald spots are brown too (that's a big reason it looks odd -- how many bald guys dye their scalps to match their hair?).

And although the jigging pattern is very pretty, it is not a jigging pattern ever made by any bone company in the past.
Remember my lesson about blade profiles: they were never random.

Neither were jigging patterns. Not even when done by hand.

Other oddities:
Shield not inletted. Usually isn't, on THIS type of bone. Usually was, on old bone handles.
Handle rivets were spun, but the structural rivet, the spring rivet, was not. Why not?

Alright, Sherlock... what do YOU conclude?

BRL...

[sextonknifeworks]

WOW. I guess the only way it could be authentic is for someone high up in the ranks to be selling it. The knife looks 100% to me. The reason the jigging is not wore is because the knife has not been used. It appears to have full blades so the handles would not have been wore.

[Iron Hoarder]

I've seen no mention of the fact that bone darkens as it ages and the oil from being handled or stored near other things will affect the color of bone. I've got one that I had worked on and the difference in bone color before and after being polished is astounding. That knife looks fine and I have some really old English knives where the bald spots are just as nicely dyed as the rest of the knife.

[Miller Bro's]

This is not a trick question or posting.

The knife shown is original as are the jigged bone handles on said knife.

This is the statement that really surprises me;

And although the jigging pattern is very pretty, it is not a jigging pattern ever made by any bone company in the past.

[tongueriver]

I think that knife, bone and all, is absolutely authentic in every way.

[philco]

I'd like to have a shoebox full of "fakes" like that one.


Phil

[1967redrider]

Man, that is one sweet jack knife I'd be proud to own!

[Knife Nut]

Going back a couple years ago, I spent half my internet knife time on this site and half on that "other site".
Now I never visit over there because, quit honestly, it's a waste of time. It seems everyone there is a psuedo expert, or has some chip on their shoulder and a axe to grind. As far as BRL, he probably has forgotten more than I'll will ever know pertaining to knives, but he is not the "God" that he thinks he is.
If that knife is not 100% authentic, then half the knives in my collection may be fake!

Paul

[Iron Hoarder]

I've seen that jigging pattern on old knives from both sides of the Atlantic. The American, English, and German companies sent things back and forth all the time. Since a fair number of English cutlers went to the US you can bet some of their old ties lasted a long time. Those English salesmen who had offices in the US probably didn't just sell knives either.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Someone once posted a query about a very nice and very desirable old Robeson on that site.

During that discussion, a sup-topic about knife handles was started by BRL. He brought up that theory about bone being died and shaped before and after application to the knife frame. At that time, he said that the sanded or ground areas should be markedly lighter than the rest of the handle. He showed some Cattaraugus and NYK company knives to illustrate what genuine old handles should look like.

I dropped out of the discussion, as he was essentially calling into question just about every Robeson I owned.

I don't know squat about bone manufacturing companies, bone dying, grinding or knife construction sequences, but I do know a genuine un-messed-with Robeson knife when I see one.

I don't think BRL's theory about light and dark areas on bone handles holds that much water. It simply isn't the tell-all indicator of lack of authenticity that he's making it out to be.

Charlie Noyes

[Iron Hoarder]

It would depend upon the type of bone, the process used, the dye, all sorts of details would come into play. I'm sure there were a good many practices used by different companies. I've found eight different mixtures for cutlers cement. I'm sure they all work in some manner or another.

[knife7knut]

Although I am far from being an "expert" on whether a knife(or anything else for that matter)is real or not,I fail to see any problems with this knife.In the regard to jigging of the bone,I have seen several examples of where flat spots and light areas occurred.Even machines make mistakes occasionally.
Possibly the reason it's authenticity was brought into question was the fact that many years ago there was a veritable flood of fake Primble knives on the collector market.Don't recall the exact specifics but most were pretty obvious(re-stamps).
I was also a frequent visitor to the aforementioned site and came away with similar impressions;notably a predilection of most members to engage in vast quantities of pedal digit osculation upon the reigning deity;King Bernard of the Superfluous Vocabulary and Keen Depilatory Instrument Snide.
I don't think the King is getting his,"ashes hauled" enough

[robinetn]

Although I am far from being an "expert" on whether a knife(or anything else for that matter)is real or not,I fail to see any problems with this knife.In the regard to jigging of the bone,I have seen several examples of where flat spots and light areas occurred.Even machines make mistakes occasionally.
Possibly the reason it's authenticity was brought into question was the fact that many years ago there was a veritable flood of fake Primble knives on the collector market.Don't recall the exact specifics but most were pretty obvious(re-stamps).
I was also a frequent visitor to the aforementioned site and came away with similar impressions;notably a predilection of most members to engage in vast quantities of pedal digit osculation upon the reigning deity;King Bernard of the Superfluous Vocabulary and Keen Depilatory Instrument Snide.
I don't think the King is getting his,"ashes hauled" enough

Pardon me sir , but me thinks that you have misinterpreted the osculation target !

Bob

[Miller Bro's]

I don`t want this to turn into a thread bashing anyone, I want it to be a learning experience.

Please add a comment directly related to the knife and subject being discussed

Here are some more comments about how the bone was processed by companies that sold it during the day.

Originally Posted by rprocter
Is the correct way to dye the bone first, then cut to correct size, then jig it, then fit it to liners and bolsters, then pin it ?
roland
1. cook it

2. slab it

3. jig the slabs

4. dye the jigged slabs


5. cut to length, slightly oversized in width

6. finish

That was for bone made by the bone companies (mainly Rogers, Winterbottom). They did 1-4. Knife factory did the rest.

BUT for knife companies that produced jigged bone in house, they could vary it.

**

Back before jigged bone, when scratted bone handles were cut by hand in Sheffield (never in the US - too labor intensive), the finished handle would be colored before affixing the item.

Some bone and stag was colored by flame rather than with dye.

Do You agree with the 6 step process?

[knife7knut]

I don`t want this to turn into a thread bashing anyone, I want it to be a learning experience.

Please add a comment directly related to the knife and subject being discussed

Here are some more comments about how the bone was processed by companies that sold it during the day.
1. cook it
2. slab it
3. jig the slabs
4. dye the jigged slabs
5. cut to length, slightly oversized in width
6. finish
That was for bone made by the bone companies (mainly Rogers, Winterbottom). They did 1-4. Knife factory did the rest.
BUT for knife companies that produced jigged bone in house, they could vary it.
Back before jigged bone, when scratted bone handles were cut by hand in Sheffield (never in the US - too labor intensive), the finished handle would be colored before affixing the item.

Some bone and stag was colored by flame rather than with dye.

Do You agree with the 6 step process?[/quote]


Sorry if I offended anyone with my reply,but I have a very low tolerance of pontificators.
I still maintain that the knife is original in all respects.
As for the 6 step process as described in a somewhat abbreviated form(reminds me of someone describing the operation of a 4-stroke cycle in an automotive engine;instead of saying,"Intake;compression;ignition;exhaust" they say,"Suck;squish;bang;and blow"),I suppose it sounds reasonable to assume that is the way it was made. The last bit about coloring with flame might apply to stag but I doubt it was done with bone and that process antedates this knife so isn't pertinent to the discussion.
Reminds me of a saying an old friend used to state on appropriate occasion:" Opinions are like rectal cavities;everybody has one and they are a bit odiferous on occasion".
I'll close now.

[msteele6]

That's the way I always assumed the process was carried out.

[Iron Hoarder]

Here is I knife I had repaired by a current Sheffield cutler. The back scale matches the coloring of the front scale even though they came from two different knives. I'm pretty sure the front scale is original ( see the cracks near the bolster)and the back is replaced with the same color of vintage bone from another knife and they were then both sanded re-jigged with a simpler pattern and polished. At any rate what you see of the back scale is the color of both scales when found. Now either they were redyed while on the knife or the polishing really brought out the color. The only reason you can tell the difference is that the back scale has a wider spacing of the jigging marks. I think he was getting tired by the time he got to that side. The color though appears to go all the way through.

[Miller Bro's]

This is the way the Rogers company did it.

1. Boil the bone
2. Cut slabs to proper thickness
3. Cut Length & Width slightly over sized
4. Jig the slabs
5. Dye the jigged slabs
6. Done, Ship to client.

Here is a vintage unused slab of Rogers jigged bone. These were going to be used on Remington knives but were never used due to the war and Remington closing down their knife making division and selling all their equipment to Pal. These handles were found in a warehouse inside a drum several years ago. What an opportunity to see exactly how these handles were delivered to the knife factories that made knives during this period.

Note that the handle is very dark, a chocolate brown color. The front, back and all sides are the same color. When these were fitted to a knife frame the length was adjusted accordingly and then pinned to the liner, then after the knife was assembled the width was sanded down to meet the liners. During this time the edges would become lighter as the dark dye was sanded off. Next the handles were buffed/polished and this would lighten them to the color we are use to seeing on an old unused knife from that period.