Blade Magazine March 2007 - Pacific Rim Knives

[Hukk]

Anyone read the March issue of Blade Magazine? They have an article about Pacific Rim Knives. They do have the opinion and data that Taiwan made knives are superior to those made in mainland China. According to Blade Magazine Taiwain is capable of using AUS6 and AUS8 and some other advanced alloys like S30V while Mainland China is only capable of using steels like 440A and as they say some "Mystery Stainless Steels".
If I remember correctly AUS 6 and AUS 8 are like 440 A and 440 C with a bit of Vandium added to make a tougher steel.
The article seems to say that US knifemakers need the Pacific Rim knifemakers to survive and those that don't will struggle to stay afloat. So, it almost seems as if they condone the practice, that's what I seemed to get out of the article, because it was written with an upbeat tone.
This is a 2 part article. Part 2 will be in April and the name of the article will be, "Beasts of the Far East".
Interesting read, anyone else read and get a different take on the article?

[SFC ADP]

I read the article as well, well I should say I skimmed over it, and it made me sick to my stomach. I did not like the positive spin they were placing on these knives. Later in the magazine I was reading I think about Camillus & United, and they made a reference to read the Pacific Rims article.
Pretty much my immpression was they condone and embrace the oversea's market of cutlery. I think if US Knife makers put into practice the ideas in the Knife World that was published recently, maybe they can get a little more competitive.
Of course it is really on the American Buyer. They buy this oversea's imported cutlery, they just throw gas on the fire. Yes, imported knives are cheap, its cheap labor over there. America pays its workers a minimum wage (which is trying to increase) and for knife makers to stay in business they have to buy materials, pay workers, and of course make a profit. I would be curious as to what is the profit margin on a typical american made knife such as Case. What is the overhead on making one knife compared to how much it sells for.
I am positive the overhead on a pacific rim knife cannot be much at all. Cheap Labor, Cheap materials = cheap knives.
One benefit as collectors, American Knife companies that do fold, causes our knives of that company to go up in value. (Sad but True)
But with current Society Standards who are scared of weapons such as guns/knives I think collecting in future generations may go down quite a bit, unless current collectors can pass on these traditions, and educate todays youth on the art of knife collecting.
One interesting thing I did read, and of course made perfect sence to me was once the Cheap Asia Cutlery dominates the Market, then you will see the prices shoot up, as then you would have no alternative but to buy their knives. Once a market is dominated, you can also expect quality standards to slip.
I am all for keeping American Jobs here in America, and hate to see these jobs exported overseas. I think if American Knife companies turn out a quality product, we as Americans have a responsibilty to pay for the quality of service we have received. But as a consumer society, we flock to the cheapest items, which hurts the american cutlery industry.

Enough of my ranting, but to sum it all up, I was not overly immpressed with Blade magazines Article.

[jabberwocky]

Hukk and SFC ADP...

I wholeheartedly agree with both your postings...my only question is...what are we as collectors/enthusiasts to do, in order to ensure that future generation will continue to appreciate and collect American cutlery products?

It seems to be an increasingly difficult task to get younger buyers and collectors to appreciate quality over price points. I've seen postings on this very forum (as I'm sure you guys have) asking, in essence, "what's wrong with the Chinese/Taiwanese, etc., products...they seem perfectly fine to me?"

And, alternatively, I've seen posting by a few members, who've said that "newer Case products have declined in quality, workmanship, etc."

I'll have to admit that after much "soul-searching", and learning over the past year I've been a member of this forum, that I've come to the same conclusion as some others here...(i.e....I'd rather carry something of quality than a cheap import...even if that means that I'd rather have fewer quality knives, than a huge, honkin' collection of Steel Warriors.)

I'm beginning to think that's it's the old question of "education". Some of us on this forum can distinguish between grades of 440 Stainless, etc...
other, newer buyers/collectors cannot. So there's a discrepancy concerning the knowledge level of components and the like. Which steels comprise a good blade?...which are cheap?

Ultimately, there's no getting around it...a quality knife is gonna cost you.
We, as collectors, enthusiasts can't possibly overcome or solve the labor cost disparities, or the raw materials costs disparities inherent in the US vs. Asian equation. I think all we can do is try and educate newcomers in the intricacies of the product (knives), and hope that they will make the judgement for themselves.

Just my opinion...I could be wrong.

cj

[Hukk]

As I was reading the part comparing Tawainese and the Chinese knives it seems as if it the quality of their knives will go up substancially. The article mentioned the new state of the art equipment that China is likely to be getting. Spyderco and a few others were specifically mentioned. What this would mean is that they would need fewer low paid workers to make better quality knives.
When I was working at Agilent Technologies in the Semiconductor Test and Measurement Department I trained quite a few technicians and engineers to take my job overseas. 5 years ago, assemblers were making $1.25 per hour and engineers were making $7-$8.00 per hour.
Now there is a shortage of workers in Malayasia and people work 6 months here and 6 months there, getting raises each time, so cost was going up. Now the Malayasians are afraid that their jobs are going to go to China where an assembler is paid about 80-90 cents an hour.

What I'm getting at here is the same thing is happening in the knife industry. China will be recieving state of the art knife manufacturing equipment just like Case and other knife companies have here as well as knife companies based in Europe. If these companies try to compete with China and Taiwan by cutting corners, they lose, they can't compete on the same playing field. When I look at the overall picture, it's my opinion that Case, Bulldog, Queen and other manufacturers would be smart to to build some more mid priced and high end knives, higher quality knives with better steel in addition to their current line up. I would love to buy all of these knives with D2, 01, S30V, 19C27 Sandvick, and many others. I believe that this is one of the reasons that Canal Street Cutlery has done so well, that and being innovative by bringing back old designs. I would pay to have the quality of knife Grandpa had.

Sorry to be so long winded, I don't like the idea of China/Taiwan taking over, but when they get new manufacturing equipment; they will have the ability to make knives that have high quality and low prices. They may also have the ability to start using these same steels I mentioned before.

[Hukk]

Hukk and SFC ADP...
I wholeheartedly agree with both your postings...my only question is...what are we as collectors/enthusiasts to do, in order to ensure that future generation will continue to appreciate and collect American cutlery products?
It seems to be an increasingly difficult task to get younger buyers and collectors to appreciate quality over price points. I've seen postings on this very forum (as I'm sure you guys have) asking, in essence, "what's wrong with the Chinese/Taiwanese, etc., products...they seem perfectly fine to me?"
And, alternatively, I've seen posting by a few members, who've said that "newer Case products have declined in quality, workmanship, etc."
I'll have to admit that after much "soul-searching", and learning over the past year I've been a member of this forum, that I've come to the same conclusion as some others here...(i.e....I'd rather carry something of quality than a cheap import...even if that means that I'd rather have fewer quality knives, than a huge, honkin' collection of Steel Warriors.)
I'm beginning to think that's it's the old question of "education". Some of us on this forum can distinguish between grades of 440 Stainless, etc...
other, newer buyers/collectors cannot. So there's a discrepancy concerning the knowledge level of components and the like. Which steels comprise a good blade?...which are cheap?
Ultimately, there's no getting around it...a quality knife is gonna cost you.
We, as collectors, enthusiasts can't possibly overcome or solve the labor cost disparities, or the raw materials costs disparities inherent in the US vs. Asian equation. I think all we can do is try and educate newcomers in the intricacies of the product (knives), and hope that they will make the judgement for themselves.
Just my opinion...I could be wrong.
cj

Here is another project for Bryan Sorry Bryan, I just could not help myself.
Although China has vast resources of iron and other materials they purchase almost everything on the world market, thereby increasing costs for every project in the world. One reason is that they do not have the ability to mine enough for their own needs. Another is that the reserves are still there.
We have to stop thinking of China as a Third World Country. They are one of the most polluted countries in the world due to the mad rush to become a hugely profitable manufacturing juggernaut and are now an economic power. Even President Bush has trouble with the Chinese when he tries to get them to float the value of the yuan on the world market. Currently some Chinese colleges are some of the best in the world; almost all of the professors were educated here in the USA and Europe. Some Chinese students have declined scholarships at colleges such as Harvard. They believe their own colleges are now better. They may be right.
jabberwocky, you are correct in my opinion, but that goes true for every Harbor Freight, Walmart, Target, Home Depot and many other stores, not just knives. Next time you are in one of these stores, look where items are made, many will be made in China and Americans as a whole are more loyal to their pocketbook than they are to Old Glory.

[SFC ADP]

I have voiced some fix it ideas on another page of this forum, which it seems this topic comes up about once a month...

and I get fired up about it every time!

But here is that post I put on that post:

http://allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_f ... 5&start=15

[Gr8Scout]

I've been looking for a chance to get into three new knives I've recently purchased, all of which were made in China. Please note: I have not been looking for an oppurtunity to start a fight.

Here are three of the new Boker Plus knives, from the Armed Forces series. Look like Buck/Striders, don't they? And just because one knife looks like another doesn't mean they are the same, we all know that. But let's look a little closer.

I'm showing the three armed forces models here, at the top left being two of the 'Tanto Folder 1' (BO112) model. Neat huh. Here I paraphrase the boker web site description:

"Titanium nitride coated 440C stainless steel blades provide the best edge-holding ability, ideal for rugged field use. The handles are made of solid G-10, which will hold up even under rigorous field use. A deep checkering prevents slipping of the handles. The hollow-ground, partially serrated blade is secured in the opened position with the liner lock. Includes pocket-clip. Overall length: 6 3/4". Blade length: 2 5/8". Weight 3.4 oz."

I have been carrying one of these little guys for three weeks, using it daily. Mostly cutting cardboard, scraping the insulation off electrical cables, slicing a little wood for shims. I touched up the blade just once, using a cheap diamond hone. Please note that the clip can be placed in one of four different positions, making it easy for me to adjust it for tip up, right hand pocket. With a tiny bit of practice, you can yank this little sucker out of your pocket, catching the top 'guard' (flipper) on the fabric and zip, it is open. Liner lock. Very secure. Very comfortable to carry and use. No blade wobble, and with just a bit of oiling, that blade opens quick and easy. Does the blade fit perfectly centered between the steel liners? No, and at this price point, I don't feel bad about that. But the blade does not scrape the liners as it opens and closes. I honestly like the knife and found it good value for the price. MSRP is $34.95. Street price: $20

Next up, shown just above the coyote tan Buck Strider, is the size up Boker, the 'Tanto 2',, model BO114. Will you look at the size of that handle?! Massive. The blade is only 1/8" longer than the Buck/Strider's, but the handle is 7/8" larger. Like the little guy above, the larger tanto has a hold for a thong/lanyard. I won't get into the whole description, just adding this from the Boker web site:

"The hollow-ground, partially serrated blade is secured in the opened position with the liner lock. Includes pocket-clip. Overall length: 9 1/3". Blade length: 3 3/4". Weight 6.8 oz.".

I like the long long handle, but that is just me. Fills my average sized palm up so much better than the Buck Strider, that I have carried off and on for a few months (I do like it). With the Boker's pocket clip in the tip down position, this thing really sticks out of your pocket a bit. Tip down is less a problem, and I can do the same little quick opening trick. I chose to carry this Tanto 2 in a belt sheath, however. I have used it only a tiny bit. I do like it, but it is not as useful to me as the smaller Tanto 1. Still, it is a sturdy knife, no blade wobble, fit and finish is just fine, it came shaving sharp out of the box. The top guard on both of these knives is something you will either like or not. I like it. Or can live with it. If the user were to grind it off, the thumb stud would let you open the knife just fine; better in fact, without the top guard/flipper. There is nothing wrong with this knife. I find the overall quality fine. MSRP: $49.95. Street price: $25.00. the Buck Strider 889CB
SBMF™ I compare this to has an MSRP of $80. I think I paid $60 for mine.

Lastly, sitting next to the Big Buck Strider spear point, is the Boker Tactical Tanto Fixed Blade, model number BO216. Again, from the website, the last paragraph, word for word:

"The first time you grab the handle of this knife, you will know that it will withstand harsh field use. The 7 1/3" tanto blade has a chisel grind and is partially serrated. Sturdy Cordura sheath included. Overall length: 13". Weight: 12 2/5 oz."

This is heavy metal. A badasz brute of a knife. The blade is over an inch and a half wide. A murderous skull crusher and it has three different holes for thongs or whatever. I cannot write more about this knife as I have not used it as it is meant to be used. Well, no way I can take it into combat anyway, and I have not yet gone afield while carrying it. I simply do not know how it would perform. Buck does make a Tanto version of their Strider fixed blade, wish I had one to reaally compare the two with. MSRP is 69.95. I paid about $40 for mine. The Buck Strider model 890TX is $186.00.

So there you have it. These Bokers are not exactly like the Buck/Striders, but there are similaries and both seem to have the same end use in mind, which is as a military man's knife. The B/S knives are 420HC, the Bokers are 440C. I can and have put on edge on either steel, no problem. The handles on the Bokers are G-10, and on the Bucks they are made from 'TACCOM' glass filled nylon. I find both do the same job well. I have to give the Bokers the edge in the multi-point placement of the pocket clips, and I wish the B/S folder had a thong hole.

I have to give the Buck/Strider an edge on security of the blade in the open position. Maybe because it is so new, the big Boker folder needs a real 'snap' to fully engage the liner lock. This is a big deal to me. I do note that the B/S is put together with rivets of some sort, and the Boker can be disassembled with a screwdriver. Blades on all the folders shown can be tightened/loosened.

Because the Bokers are tanto and the B/S knives are not, no way I can compare the two in cutting or stabbing. Just can't do it.

Boker goes on to say this in their advertising for the 'Armed Forces' knives:

"Everyone knows the so-called PX Shops that you can find on U.S. military bases all over the world. U.S. soldiers can buy additional equipment, like knives, privately. Aside from the regular manufactured brand knives, the ARMED FORCES develops some special models that perfectly fit the needs and requirements of the fighting soldiers. Boker, under the new label BOKER PLUS, is now producing three models that meet the critical demands of the ARMED FORCES. This new series will be produced with strict instructions and quality checks by our well-known business partners in the Far East. The main characteristic is that all models are designed to perform under any circumstances with the best price performance."

I don't know if these Bokers are for sale in PX stores or not. Would be interesting to know. The above does bring up an good point however: It doesn't matter how good the Buck is compared to the Boker if the reservist on his way to Iraq, having to make do for his family on military pay, cannot afford the thing. Big difference in the prices I mention above.

Phil

[jonet143]

my opinion. no matter if the chinese knife is a frost or a boker. it's still fueling the chinese communist agenda. do you think the chinese boker workers are any different than the workers churning out the thousands of cheap chinese folders that are sold in our country?

carry and use what you want, need, can afford, or prefer, i will buy american until there are no more.

phil, i'm a little confused by the title " the patriotic choice" you have above your chinese knives.

[Gr8Scout]

"The patriot's choice" just came to me as a title for the photos after I typed the last paragraph of my post. I'm still thinking of the soldier on his way to Iraq with less than fifty bucks to spend on a combat knife.

There are good, solid American citizens who drive small, high milage cars that will last a long time, which happen to be made overseas, or by a corporation based overseas. As these folks drive their econoboxes, using precious little petro products, they feel they are performing a patriotic deed by making us less dependent on foreign oil.

Phil

[jonet143]

what chinese cars are you refering to?

there are several programs in which we as "well heeled" knifers can buy and donate combat knives to be distributed to our troops in the field. issue knives are not inferior, but they are not trendy. all of these urban street fighters out today won't kill any deader or open ration boxes better than an issue knife. buying chinese knives is not patriotic. even if you say it's for our poor troops.

[SFC ADP]

As a Soldier, and former Airborne Infantry soldier, I can tell you for a fact, all I ever needed was a small folder which served a few purposes:
1. Opening MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat)
2. Scraping carbon out of my weapon every once inawhile
3. Sometimes would cut parachute cords if they got snagged up in whatever object on the DZ.

These guys that ran out and bought knives longer than 1/2 their leg, us "old timers" would shake our heads. 1st road march they would usually have a nice raw spot onthem from it rubbing against them. That or it would get caught up on "everything".

Usually I had a Swiss Army Knife, that handled most day to day operations.
So don't buy into the hype of knives meeting military specifications and what not, usually just a nice small folder will meet any job you need a knife for.

[nmikash]

Just out of curiosity as I am younger member. Was there as much controversy over Japanese made knives when they first came on to the scene?

This is an area where some members have strong opinions & I would like to remind everyone(as has been done before) that we are here to talk knives not politics. Everyone has a right to an opinion, please be respectful. We've been through this thread before under several different names....
I vote that we stop beating a dead horse.

Nick

[jonet143]

nick, you're right. it is a dead horse. i meant no disrespect of phil's opinion. he's correct. some chinese knives are on a par or better with other american and foreign brands. and less expensive. as for japan, they were a beaten nation posing no new threat to america, a source of cheaper labor and broader profits. now, they they can make great knives, and great japanese knives arnt inexpensive. the money has moved to china. the knives from china will sell by the thousands. and if we can't discuss the politics we feel affect our hobby...........in a thread begun about the pacific rim......
only problem is this dead horse is still in the middle of the road!

no offence meant

[MITCH RAPP]

Hey! Jonet, are you talking about this horse?

[SFC ADP]

I would not call it a dead horse at all, I would classify it as a hot topic in the knife collector community. It was just mentioned in the latest issue of blade magazine, and was in last months knife world. It has been brought up in the forums many times.
We all have our opinions on the matter, some more strongly than others. This is a forum about knife collecting, and this is something that affects our hobby.
So rest assured we will be talking about this topic again and again!

Adam

[jonet143]

hey mitch, that might be the one! back then, you got fined for littering.

and adam, you're right. the subject will keep coming up. maybe we need a sticky devoted to chinese knife discussion. we must respect other opinions and not take ourselves too seriously.

if you're not interested in this thread, don't read it, there are lots of other very interesting topics to choose from.