Authentic? Case Bros Winterbottom

[Cabphoto]

Hi There-

New to the forum. Forgive me if this is the wrong sections. I'm not accusing this post of being fake. I'm more looking for the expertise of others on the forum to give an opinion. Seller states knife may be "rehandled". Anyone have experience with this particular seller? Seller seems prolific on Ebay. Are all his wares too good to be true or mixed bag? Hope I have not asked too many questions. Thank you.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/116389685920

[edge213]

Hi There-

New to the forum. Forgive me if this is the wrong sections. I'm not accusing this post of being fake. I'm more looking for the expertise of others on the forum to give an opinion. Seller states knife may be "rehandled". Anyone have experience with this particular seller? Seller seems prolific on Ebay. Are all his wares too good to be true or mixed bag? Hope I have not asked too many questions. Thank you.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/116389685920

He is a member here and has written books on old Case knives.
If he says it's legit, it is.

[Cabphoto]

Great to know. Thank you. I read so many posts about things being too good to be true I started thinking nothing was legit.

[cbfd]

Tom is a "Top Notch" seller ,goes by olderdogs1 on Ebay.

[peanut740]

. Here's a W.R.Case & Sons red winterbottom for comparison.

[Cabphoto]

So Glad to be a part of this forum. So glad there are reputable dealers on eBay and that you guys are here to back them up and share information with the less knowledgeable.. Thank you.

[FRJ]

So Glad to be a part of this forum. So glad there are reputable dealers on eBay and that you guys are here to back them up and share information with the less knowledgeable.. Thank you.

Welcome here, Cabphoto.

[btrwtr]

Can't say there is much I like about the OP knife but I have never been a fan of heavily cleaned knives. The long pull on the master blade looks very large and coarse for an old Case Bros. knife but that could be a product of the cleaning. He sells a few old Case knives rehandled in Winterbottom bone so maybe this knife has been rehandled. Not meaning to be contrary but just my observation from the pictures provided.

[winst]

Where can I get a copy of Tom's book on old Case knives? Thanks

[bestgear]

Where can I get a copy of Tom's book on old Case knives? Thanks

Amazon

[peanut740]

Can't say there is much I like about the OP knife but I have never been a fan of heavily cleaned knives. The long pull on the master blade looks very large and coarse for an old Case Bros. knife but that could be a product of the cleaning. He sells a few old Case knives rehandled in Winterbottom bone so maybe this knife has been rehandled. Not meaning to be contrary but just my observation from the pictures provided.

[Mumbleypeg]

Where can I get a copy of Tom's book on old Case knives? Thanks

I got a copy directly from Tom when they first came out. Send him a PM. Maybe he still has some. viewtopic.php?p=1152244#p1152244

Ken

[winst]

Thanks Ken...will message Tom right away.

[Gunsil]

He definitely knows a lot about Case knives yet he keeps parroting the old wives tale that the Tested XX mark was used on pocket knives from 1920-1940. Anybody who really studies the subject knows that the mark did NOT end in 1940 and there is absolutely no proof that it began in 1920. Those dates are from Mary Preto, a longtime Case employee and come from her memory in her 70s. They are not backed up by any Case company literature or facts. Anybody who looks at old photos of the Case factory display board of the pocket knives they made for the military during WW2 can plainly see that the knives are marked Tested XX. So in reality the Tested mark lasted until at least 1945 and some think it may have been 1949 that they changed to the Case XX on folding knives. So the 1920-1940 theory is incorrect and that also makes the Case XX 1940-1965 incorrect. I also think that when he says the OP knife "may be rehandled" that he knows it was.

[wlf]

Why doesn't he post on here anymore? He used to all the time.

[peanut740]

Case Brothers toenail in what is commonly called early winterbottom bone for comparison.

[FRJ]

A beautiful comparison, Roger.

[Mumbleypeg]

Why doesn't he post on here anymore? He used to all the time.

Looks like his most recent post was in February, in a thread having questions about authenticity of an old Case Brothers knife. He logged in earlier today. Seems to me he posts if there are topics that interest him, like old knives. There seems to me to be fewer of those nowadays.

He definitely knows a lot about Case knives yet he keeps parroting the old wives tale that the Tested XX mark was used on pocket knives from 1920-1940. Anybody who really studies the subject knows that the mark did NOT end in 1940 and there is absolutely no proof that it began in 1920. Those dates are from Mary Preto, a longtime Case employee and come from her memory in her 70s. They are not backed up by any Case company literature or facts. Anybody who looks at old photos of the Case factory display board of the pocket knives they made for the military during WW2 can plainly see that the knives are marked Tested XX. So in reality the Tested mark lasted until at least 1945 and some think it may have been 1949 that they changed to the Case XX on folding knives. So the 1920-1940 theory is incorrect and that also makes the Case XX 1940-1965 incorrect.

I agree Gene, as you know. But we’re fighting a cause that was lost when the first Case tang stamp dating chart
was published back in the late 1960s or early 1970s. After it was published, even though wrong it was repeatedly re-published and became accepted truth. (Not at all unlike some modern-day “truths”). I’m sure Mary Petro and Case VP Bob Farquharson (who gave those dates to Dewey Ferguson, who subsequently published them) had no idea that her “guesstimate” of dates would live on as gospel for 60+ years, and counting.

A few weeks ago I tried to explain that to a new member here, who got mad that I questioned those dates. They appear in every publication from Levine to Sargent to Parker and even Case’s web site (and here on AAPK in the research section). So why not in Tom’s book also?? Easier to conform than to argue.

Ken

[Gunsil]

Yeah Ken, I have complained to the Case people at their show a couple years ago but the people I complained to just run the show, they said they weren't capable of researching or changing it. Katie Shonts used to be the Case company historian and she agreed and said she thought the Tested mark ran until 1949. Then she got another job, left Case, and the current historian doesn't seem to be interested in the earlier days. She actually listened to people outside the company who have done a lot of research. Once something is written it is hard to change even if it's wrong. There are other improper dates on the Case charts, like they say one of the stainless marks began in 1916 but stainless was not available until 1919-1920. There doesn't seem to be people at Case who care about accuracy in the charts. Seems a shame that so many collectors seem to wish to know exactly when their knives were made when in many cases there were no records kept regarding changes in marks. Case also didn't produce annual catalogs and price lists in the earlier days so it's hard for independent researchers figure it out. Don't even get me going about Levine, he is so sure of his ancient research that he doesn't want to accept facts that have come to light since he wrote his great book.

[knifeaholic]

Yeah Ken, I have complained to the Case people at their show a couple years ago but the people I complained to just run the show, they said they weren't capable of researching or changing it. Katie Shonts used to be the Case company historian and she agreed and said she thought the Tested mark ran until 1949. Then she got another job, left Case, and the current historian doesn't seem to be interested in the earlier days. She actually listened to people outside the company who have done a lot of research. Once something is written it is hard to change even if it's wrong. There are other improper dates on the Case charts, like they say one of the stainless marks began in 1916 but stainless was not available until 1919-1920. There doesn't seem to be people at Case who care about accuracy in the charts. Seems a shame that so many collectors seem to wish to know exactly when their knives were made when in many cases there were no records kept regarding changes in marks. Case also didn't produce annual catalogs and price lists in the earlier days so it's hard for independent researchers figure it out. Don't even get me going about Levine, he is so sure of his ancient research that he doesn't want to accept facts that have come to light since he wrote his great book.

I fully agree that the Case Tested stamp lasted until the post WWII era - there is plenty of evidence for that (and as regards BR Levine, he also believes that). However, when I write descriptions for knives to post on eBay I stick to the "published" 1920 to 1940 period for Tested and 1940 to '65 period for XX becuase if I tried to post the true dates, I would be overwhelmed with eBay "experts" correcting me and I would never sell anything or get anything done.

I also have my own theories as to when the WR Case & Sons and Case Braford stamps started and ended, and when the Case Tested stamp started, and all of my theories run counter to "the narrative" of the published dates.

[olderdogs1]

Yeah Ken, I have complained to the Case people at their show a couple years ago but the people I complained to just run the show, they said they weren't capable of researching or changing it. Katie Shonts used to be the Case company historian and she agreed and said she thought the Tested mark ran until 1949. Then she got another job, left Case, and the current historian doesn't seem to be interested in the earlier days. She actually listened to people outside the company who have done a lot of research. Once something is written it is hard to change even if it's wrong. There are other improper dates on the Case charts, like they say one of the stainless marks began in 1916 but stainless was not available until 1919-1920. There doesn't seem to be people at Case who care about accuracy in the charts. Seems a shame that so many collectors seem to wish to know exactly when their knives were made when in many cases there were no records kept regarding changes in marks. Case also didn't produce annual catalogs and price lists in the earlier days so it's hard for independent researchers figure it out. Don't even get me going about Levine, he is so sure of his ancient research that he doesn't want to accept facts that have come to light since he wrote his great book.

I fully agree that the Case Tested stamp lasted until the post WWII era - there is plenty of evidence for that (and as regards BR Levine, he also believes that). However, when I write descriptions for knives to post on eBay I stick to the "published" 1920 to 1940 period for Tested and 1940 to '65 period for XX becuase if I tried to post the true dates, I would be overwhelmed with eBay "experts" correcting me and I would never sell anything or get anything done.

I also have my own theories as to when the WR Case & Sons and Case Braford stamps started and ended, and when the Case Tested stamp started, and all of my theories run counter to "the narrative" of the published dates.

Steve, I agree with your post and I fully agree that the published dates are merely estimates. I know your books, which are wonderful information for Case XX folks, have the published dates as does mine of course. Of course so do the books by Gerald Witcher, Jim Sargent, Tony Foster, John Goins, and some others of course. I do mention in my latest book that in the W R Case & Sons era that any knife stamped W R Case & Sons that is authentic and has the XX stamp was produced after 1915 which W R Case & Sons didn't have authority to use the XX stamp until it was acquired late 1914. Also the Naval Issue knives that were stamped W R Case & Sons were produced on a contract dated 1917, around 80,000 knives at .39 each. I, like you, if I was listing one on Ebay, would use the published dates.
As far as the knife in question, it may very well be rehandled as I mentioned in the description. I have listed, and sold, some Winterbottom handled knives that I know have been rehandled and I state that in my descriptions. I do believe that it is totally authentic though possibly rehandled. I have many Winterbottom handled knives from the early Case eras and there can be differences even though they are from the same era even though original.

Tom

[FRJ]

Very interesting reading.

[btrwtr]

I have never seen an old Case knife with such a wide, long, and crude looking long pull. It looks to me like the pull like you see on more recent Boker USA pen and small jack knives minus the irregularity at the tang. The irregularity in the pull close to the tang is strange in that it doesn't match the rest of the pull and appears to have been done by some method other than factory. There looks to be some scarring of the metal in the pull at the tang. The blades have obviously been heavily cleaned as seen by the thinning of the blade backs as soon as the blades come off the tang. It is unusual to see a master blade so heavily cleaned but yet so long in the frame when closed. The way both blades sit in the frame when closed also looks very odd to me. As I said there isn't much about the knife that I like but if you like it that's okay with me. Not looking for controversy but the knife was posted here for opinions, everyone has one. I believe that what AAPK is for.

[1967redrider]

. . . Anybody who looks at old photos of the Case factory display board of the pocket knives they made for the military during WW2 can plainly see that the knives are marked Tested XX. So in reality the Tested mark lasted until at least 1945 and some think it may have been 1949 that they changed to the Case XX on folding knives . . .

I have one at home with iron bolsters.

[Cabphoto]

Can't say there is much I like about the OP knife but I have never been a fan of heavily cleaned knives. The long pull on the master blade looks very large and coarse for an old Case Bros. knife but that could be a product of the cleaning. He sells a few old Case knives rehandled in Winterbottom bone so maybe this knife has been rehandled. Not meaning to be contrary but just my observation from the pictures provided.

He states in his post that if may have been rehandled.