Knife date

[miked32]

Just like to put a date on it and also what would be the best book as far as dating American and German knives to purchase.

Thank you

[Ridgegrass]

Hard to tell on those Klaas marks. They started in 1834. and the Cranes began in 1895. Levine and Price both say "Solingen" but your knife says "Ohligs" two towns that are near one another. Those are pressed bone scales. Maybe the late teens, early twenties? Just a guess. If you could establish when Klaas was in Ohligs that may be a closer date. I thought someone here posted the various styles of the cranes relative to dates but I couldn't find it. J.O'.

[Mumbleypeg]

I know of no single “good book” containing what you want. There are several books that have partial info, or info on one or a few brands. The best single source I know of is AAPK. There is a “Tang Charts” thread viewtopic.php?t=39799 and combined with the Research section contain as much or more than any single book available. Some brand-specific books have guides for determining age of that brand’s knives.

All of them contain errors and are at best guesstimates. But they’re still the best we have.

Ken

[miked32]

Thank you all for the replies. I appreciate it.

[Ridgegrass]

I went through seven pages of the "Tang Charts" thread and didn't see any Klaas. Maybe I missed it, (That happens!) I remember seeing the different styles of Cranes somewhere but ....? I still think tracing the Ohligs connection could be helpful. Anyway, Good Luck with the old knife. J.O'.

[Gunsil]

I wouldn't call that peach seed bone at all. Peach seed bone was exclusive to Schrade and used a little by Ulster, no European knives used peach seed bone and the OP knife does not really resemble a peach pit.

[Mumbleypeg]

I went through seven pages of the "Tang Charts" thread and didn't see any Klaas. Maybe I missed it,

Sorry, it was not my intent to imply there were Klaas Stamps in the Tangs Stamps thread. Only that the info contained there and the Research section here on AAPK are as good or better than any single book I'm aware of. Which is what the OP asked for.

BTW there is an easier way to search than looking through all posts in the Tang Stamps thread. The best way I know of is to open the thread and then type the brand name you're looking for into the box that says Search this thread. Submit it. If there are tang stamps or any mention of that brand it will find the post.

Ken

[Ridgegrass]

Thanks Ken. I usually do that but I don't trust my eyes and often miss the obvious, so I bumble through twice anyway.

[Ridgegrass]

I didn't see any reference to peach-seed bone in any posts.? ? Those scales are "pressed bone". ?? O'.

[btrwtr]

I don’t believe there is any such thing as pressed bone.Bone is much too hard and dense to be heated and pressed as horn is. Pressed horn is what the handles appear to be.

[Ridgegrass]

Wayne, I respectfully disagree . Somewhere on the forum, a while ago there was a discussion about the English and German knives with that material, No one really knew the process and I can't find any technical explanation of how it's done.
My own study of the material leads me to say it's bone. Here are some reasons why.
-The scale material has tiny remains of capillaries. Bone has a rich supply of blood to nourish it because bone is alive and can grow and repair itself. It also acts as a calcium reservoir to store and release calcium for other metabolic functions.
-Horn is not living tissue and therefore needs no blood supply. Chemically it is keratin, a protein found in hair, nails, skin etc. It is secreted from living epithelial cells, but once formed is "dead" like the outer layers of human skin. (Cosmetic companies and their customers don't like to admit this.)
-I have looked at both horn and bone microscopically and they are not at all similar . The horn structure is like a linear bundle of keratin fibers with no blood supply. A magnified look at our fingernails illustrates this. Bone is a calcium salt of hydroxylapitite, secreted by bone cells in concentric layers and richly interspersed with blood vessels and microscopic canals. The cells remain functional until the animal dies.
-Horn, and yes bone, can be softened to a great degree with heat and chemicals and easily formed and bent.


I'm not trying to play the expert here. My background is Biology and Physiology so the discussion appeals to me as a collector and a science guy. I don't offer this as "proof", just evidence.


Some pics and illustrations: a "pressed"- scaled knife and carved horn item and my own rough sketches of each microscopically . My best opinion without a chemical test is the scales are bone.

Hope someone can add to this discussion. I'd really like to know how it was done. They almost appear as if they're made individually for each scale. John O'.

[btrwtr]

Ridge, both the knife and handle closeup shown in your post above are pressed horn. If there was a discussion here on AAPK claiming that a handle material was pressed bone I think it was done in mistake.

[Ridgegrass]

Well, I guess we'll have to leave it there. O'.

[btrwtr]

Let me know if you come up with anything to substantiate the existence up pressed bone. Pressed horn is easy to find with a quick internet search.

[Mumbleypeg]

After searching high and low here on AAPK, I found very little about how to determine the age of Klaas Kissing Cranes knives. There are several posts with info related to newer Klaas knives having some type of Roman numeral date codes but they are contradictory or confusing (at least to me). The best I could find regarding older knives was this thread on the subject with chart of unknown origin, and a post from the late Kootenay Joe (Roland Procter) who was very knowledgeable about German-made knives. viewtopic.php?t=52040

Ken

[btrwtr]

I think the date for this knife can at least be narrowed down by the use of the pressed horn handle material. Most of the knives I have seen with this handle material looked to be turn of the 20th century or earlier. Given that and the following links I believe the OP knife is c. 1900 or earlier. The incorporation of the country of origin in the stamp would suggest it was made after 1890. The R.O.K. stamp on the knife is also what I believe to be an early mark for Klass.

Some interesting information here about pressed horn manufacture and usage.

A Link to Sharp Razor Place that also contains a link to an article by Jim Taylor's written for the Oregon Knife Club. Read to the bottom of this post where a contributor states that the manufacture of pressed horn had largely disappeared by 1927.

https://sharprazorpalace.com/workshop/6 ... cales.html

The link to Jim Taylor's article:

https://sharprazorpalace.com/workshop/6 ... cales.html

A link to a post (at top) from one of AAPK's most knowledgeable members, Miller Bro's, where he posts info from an 1844 Cutler's magazine.

viewtopic.php?p=974819&hilit=pressed+horn#p974819

[Ridgegrass]

Interesting article, Thanks. I'll keep digging. O'.

[Mumbleypeg]

Wayne, thanks for digging up that info. It’s research like that which makes knife collecting interesting to me. It can turn either a beautiful piece or an otherwise old mundane pocket knife, into an interesting find and mystery to be solved. And you learn so much more in the process - who would have known our current day term “lantern” originated as “lanthorn”, due to the sides being made of translucent pressed horn.??

Ken

[miked32]

Thank you all for your help. It’s a cool old knife. Strong snap with some weight to it. I had no clue it might dare to the late 1800s.

[Thomasg]

Let me know if you come up with anything to substantiate the existence up pressed bone. Pressed horn is easy to find with a quick internet search.

I ran across this interesting tidbit while trying to satisfy my curiosity on what the covers were on a German knife .(West co .1876-1914 ) that I own . By using the same methods I have found on AAPPK to determine bone from man made materials I think the covers on my knife maybe pressed bone or possibly natural material as the capillaries are present and can be seen easily along the spring sides of the knife with a loop .

[Ridgegrass]

Thomasg: Thanks for that post. I'd be interested in any reaction to it. The subject seems to still be in flux. J.O'.

[Ridgegrass]

Thomasg: Thanks for that post. I'd be interested in any reaction to it. The subject seems to still be in flux. J.O'.

[Thomasg]

Just like to put a date on it and also what would be the best book as far as dating American and German knives to purchase.

Thank you

1893 was when the two storks (kissing cranes ) was first used as a tang marking .I have to do some more digging around the web but it looks like OHligs Germany was still being used up till 1940s.

[miked32]

Thank you

[ThatWeirdKnifeGuy]

Just like to put a date on it and also what would be the best book as far as dating American and German knives to purchase.

Thank you

1893 was when the two storks (kissing cranes ) was first used as a tang marking .I have to do some more digging around the web but it looks like OHligs Germany was still being used up till 1940s.

I have an old kissing cranes knife that has Prussia on the stamp. My history is C- all day, but I believe that in 1871 that would switch to Germany? So they used the cranes at least that long.