outgassing prevention

[3030remchesterCOLO]

Living where I do I have never experienced outgassing. I have some gorgeous early, 1910 to 1960 celluloid scaled knives. Just today I picked up a Kutmaster Purina knife, unused in the box. All have beautiful scales. Gold and blue stone, waterfall, imitation tortoise to name just a few. Nothing but shrinkage. What is the procedure to store and view early celluloid scale?

[Mumbleypeg]

I know of no foolproof ironclad solution to prevent or eliminate celluloid outgassing. Celluloid is beautiful, mysterious, unpredictable and despite years of study and analysis no one seems to have the answers regarding what sets it off - almost as mysterious as a woman!

However the (anecdotal) evidence says celluloid items in regular use do not deteriorate. The conclusion seems to be to prevent degradation, keep the celluloid item in open air, not confined in a drawer, safe, plastic bag or other confined space. And isolated away from other celluloids - in the event one should “go off” it triggers others in near proximity and can damage metal objects that are not celluloid (brass, nickel silver and carbon steel for example). Other recommendations are keeping celluloid out of extended exposure to direct sunlight, heat, and away from petrochemicals. In the end about all one can do is keep celluloid isolated, to protect other items from damage if the celluloid item should begin to fail.

There are numerous posts about celluloid outgassing here on AAPK, they can be found using the search capability (found under Quicklinks on the upper left of this thread). Search for keywords “gassing” or out-gassing”. Here’s one to get you started

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67802

Ken

[OLDE CUTLER]

Ken is correct. One time I bought a Remington stockman that had just started out gassing. I cleaned off all the residue, oiled the metal parts heavily and put it in a small airtight zipper bag. After about 90 days I checked it and thru the bag I could see it was gassing again. As an experiment, I open the zipper on the bag right under my nose to see if there was any odor connected with outgassing. All I could smell was the scent of the oil. I squeezed all the air out of the bag before sealing it to see if the gasses made the bag puff out. They did not. Nowadays I practice " celluloid apartheid".

[Mumbleypeg]

Celluloid is made from nitro-cellulose mixed with camphor using a process including nitric and sulphuric acids under extreme pressure. Some believe celluloid deterioration releases nitric oxide and sulphuric oxide which when combined with moisture creates nitrous acid or sulphuric acid, or both. Although I generally distrust Wikipedia as a source, FWIW here’s what it says about celluloid deterioration (the emphasis is mine):

Many sources of deterioration in celluloid exist, such as thermal, chemical, photochemical, and physical. The most inherent flaw is as celluloid ages, the camphor molecules are ‘squeezed’ out of the mass due to the unsustainable pressure used in the production. That pressure causes the nitrocellulose molecules to bind back to each other or crystallize, and this results in the camphor molecules being shoved out of the material. Once exposed to the environment, camphor can undergo sublimation at room temperature, leaving the plastic as brittle nitrocellulose. Also, with exposure to excess heat, the nitrate groups can break off and expose nitrogen gases, such as nitrous oxide and nitric oxide,[18] to the air.

Another factor that can cause this is excess moisture, which can accelerate deterioration of nitrocellulose with the presence of nitrate groups, either newly fragmented from heat or still trapped as a free acid from production. Both of these sources allow the accumulation of nitric acid. Another form of deterioration, photochemical deterioration, is severe in celluloid because it absorbs ultraviolet light well. The absorbed light leads to chain-breakage and stiffening.[17]

Among collectors of antiques, the deterioration of celluloid is generally known as "celluloid rot." The chemical processes involved are not perfectly understood, but it is widely believed that the gases released by a piece undergoing celluloid rot can trigger celluloid rot in nearby articles of celluloid which were previously intact.[19]

Ken

[dsutton24]

The only certainty about Celluloid is that it's unpredictable. It can last decades under terrible conditions without trouble, it can suddenly just crumble into dust even with archival care.

Anyone telling you with certainty how to preserve Celluloid is just blowing smoke. If you search for information on the subject, you'll see mention after mention of camphor sublimation. It all sounds fairly reasonable until you find that camphor was largely eliminated from the Celluloid production process around 1930.

Now what? Who knows.

Celluloid that is running away can corrode metals (even stainless steels), and will cause other nearby celluloid objects to deteriorate. Keep celluloid knives away from each other, and away from anything else you care about. That's about all you can do.

[MadeinUSA]

How do I tell if I have any celluloid handle knives?

[dsutton24]

How do I tell if I have any celluloid handle knives?

Rub it between your thumb and forefinger briskly until it gets quite warm. If it smells of camphor, it's Celluloid. As mentioned above camphor use was discontinued around the 1930s.

After that it's kind of a guess. Celluloid was largely replaced by other plastics around the middle of the 50s. If it's brightly colored, or transparent anddates from the mid 50s or before it's probably celluloid. By the 60s plastics became the norm, and as time went on modern plastics became more versatile. That can be hard to distinguish.

You do see some later celluloid knives, and even today you'll see makers using Celluloid but it's rare. Best thing to do is to keep anything you're not sure of away from other knives.

[Mumbleypeg]

How do I tell if I have any celluloid handle knives?

First recommendation would be to do a search here for celluloid knives. There are hundreds of pictures of them. You will notice that many (by no means all) of them have multicolored covers - until the relatively recent advent of acrylics like Corelon and Kirinite there was nothing like celluloid for multi colors. Even then, celluloid often tends to have a translucent “depth” look to it - I don’t know how else to describe it but when you see it you know - that even acrylic can’t duplicate. For example on a knife having “goldstone” celluloid covers you can see the entire depth of the pins. On a knife having similar acrylic covers you cannot see past the surface.

When celluloid began to be replaced by other synthetics they were predominantly plain single color materials like Bakelite, Fiberloid, hard rubber, Fosterene, gutta percha, etc. Some were capable if being dyed yellow, red, black, etc but seldom multicolored. The big reason celluloid continued to be used is its unique ability to mix so many colors into one handle cover. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54365

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=26191

So, if you have a pre-1990s knife having multicolored covers the chances are very good it is celluloid. Solid colors are more difficult and require very good knowledge of the maker’s history in handle cover materials or the “rub and smell” or the “hot pin” tests - look it up via search if you want but I don’t recommend the test.

Ken

[MadeinUSA]

What would say about this one? Celluloid?

[tallguy606]

I have a Boker where the ends of the handles are lifting away from the liners. Is there any way to fasten them back down? Epoxy and light clamping? Don't mean to hijack topic but seems related.

[edge213]

What would say about this one? Celluloid?

CE36D256-2420-4CBF-9B64-3007A9F4805D.jpeg80FA13A6-B396-43B9-9039-5DAE6539894D.jpeg4ADBCCE6-93A0-4DCE-804C-07230B00248D.jpegB1D43A7C-8610-4B75-A0B5-F512A6E6279C.jpeg

Yes. Celluloid wrap on shell construction handles. Not solid celluloid though.

[1967redrider]

How do I tell if I have any celluloid handle knives?

Look at a lot of Fight'N Roosters that are outgassing to see what scale material was used. Then compare that to what you have.

What would say about this one? Celluloid?

CE36D256-2420-4CBF-9B64-3007A9F4805D.jpeg80FA13A6-B396-43B9-9039-5DAE6539894D.jpeg4ADBCCE6-93A0-4DCE-804C-07230B00248D.jpegB1D43A7C-8610-4B75-A0B5-F512A6E6279C.jpeg

That looks like a shell scaled knife to me. Are there tabs at the bolsters ends?

[MadeinUSA]

How do I tell if I have any celluloid handle knives?

Look at a lot of Fight'N Roosters that are outgassing to see what scale material was used. Then compare that to what you have.

What would say about this one? Celluloid?

CE36D256-2420-4CBF-9B64-3007A9F4805D.jpeg80FA13A6-B396-43B9-9039-5DAE6539894D.jpeg4ADBCCE6-93A0-4DCE-804C-07230B00248D.jpegB1D43A7C-8610-4B75-A0B5-F512A6E6279C.jpeg

That looks like a shell scaled knife to me. Are there tabs at the bolsters ends?

Sorry… don’t know what a tab on the holster end means…

[MadeinUSA]

What would say about this one? Celluloid?

CE36D256-2420-4CBF-9B64-3007A9F4805D.jpeg80FA13A6-B396-43B9-9039-5DAE6539894D.jpeg4ADBCCE6-93A0-4DCE-804C-07230B00248D.jpegB1D43A7C-8610-4B75-A0B5-F512A6E6279C.jpeg

Yes. Celluloid wrap on shell construction handles. Not solid celluloid though.

Thank you…. I posted it for sale… I don’t want to risk ruining my other knives should this one start gassing

[1967redrider]

How do I tell if I have any celluloid handle knives?

Look at a lot of Fight'N Roosters that are outgassing to see what scale material was used. Then compare that to what you have.

What would say about this one? Celluloid?

CE36D256-2420-4CBF-9B64-3007A9F4805D.jpeg80FA13A6-B396-43B9-9039-5DAE6539894D.jpeg4ADBCCE6-93A0-4DCE-804C-07230B00248D.jpegB1D43A7C-8610-4B75-A0B5-F512A6E6279C.jpeg

That looks like a shell scaled knife to me. Are there tabs at the bolsters ends?

Sorry… don’t know what a tab on the holster end means…

You can see the tab inside of the bolsters on the right. It clips a shell scale to the liner/frame. Hope this helps.

[Dan In MI]

Celluloid often tends to have a translucent “depth” look to it - I don’t know how else to describe it but when you see it you know - that even acrylic can’t duplicate. For example on a knife having “goldstone” celluloid covers you can see the entire depth of the pins.

I examined every knife I own and thought could be celluloid. Only the Camco cap-lifter jack in cracked ice had pin "legs" that could be seen through the covers. Another was celluloid (confirmed with a burn test)...but has since been removed, as it was a little rough.

Thanks for that information, Ken...now I can get an idea as to "is that knife celluloid or not" without resorting to a destructive test!

[Reverand]

What would say about this one? Celluloid?

CE36D256-2420-4CBF-9B64-3007A9F4805D.jpeg80FA13A6-B396-43B9-9039-5DAE6539894D.jpeg4ADBCCE6-93A0-4DCE-804C-07230B00248D.jpegB1D43A7C-8610-4B75-A0B5-F512A6E6279C.jpeg

Yes. Celluloid wrap on shell construction handles. Not solid celluloid though.

Thank you…. I posted it for sale… I don’t want to risk ruining my other knives should this one start gassing

I have never heard of the Imperial Celluloid wraps outgassing. For some reason they all appear completely stable. I am guessing because it is so thin, that perhaps the concentration of caustic chemicals is so low. Or perhaps they just used a different recipe. Who knows? Still, this one will not ruin your other knives.

[GSPTOPDOG]

I just posted a new thread on outgassing ... I did not see this thread... well, I guess I did not need to make a new thread. Does this look like rust from out gassing? I had this knife in a cigar box with other knives from the 1930's and the knives ended up rusting in the same way. It seems mainly on the tops of the blades and not on the bottoms/springs of the knives as they were sitting upright.

[Mumbleypeg]

Celluloid often tends to have a translucent “depth” look to it - I don’t know how else to describe it but when you see it you know - that even acrylic can’t duplicate. For example on a knife having “goldstone” celluloid covers you can see the entire depth of the pins.

I examined every knife I own and thought could be celluloid. Only the Camco cap-lifter jack in cracked ice had pin "legs" that could be seen through the covers. Another was celluloid (confirmed with a burn test)...but has since been removed, as it was a little rough.

Thanks for that information, Ken...now I can get an idea as to "is that knife celluloid or not" without resorting to a destructive test!

Sorry, I may not have been clear. You cannot see the depth of pins on all celluloid knives. I gave goldstone as one example (there are others as well), trying to explain the difference in translucence between goldstone celluloid and its acrylic equivalent. By no means can the depth of the pins (“legs” as you called it) be seen on all celluloid covers.

Sorry for the confusion. It was obviously a poorly worded example.

Ken

[Mumbleypeg]

I just posted a new thread on outgassing ... I did not see this thread... well, I guess I did not need to make a new thread. Does this look like rust from out gassing? I had this knife in a cigar box with other knives from the 1930's and the knives ended up rusting in the same way. It seems mainly on the tops of the blades and not on the bottoms/springs of the knives as they were sitting upright.

Yes, that is celluloid outgassing damage. The exposed edges of blades and any nickel silver parts (like bolsters and shields) and brass (liners) may be damaged. If others were also damaged it may have originated from that knife or spread from another in close proximity. Once one goes it will take others with it, including knives not having any celluloid. Eventually, after long enough time, it can disintegrate the entire knife leaving nothing but rusted pieces.

Ken

[GSPTOPDOG]

I just posted a new thread on outgassing ... I did not see this thread... well, I guess I did not need to make a new thread. Does this look like rust from out gassing? I had this knife in a cigar box with other knives from the 1930's and the knives ended up rusting in the same way. It seems mainly on the tops of the blades and not on the bottoms/springs of the knives as they were sitting upright.

Yes, that is celluloid outgassing damage. The exposed edges of blades and any nickel silver parts (like bolsters and shields) and brass (liners) may be damaged. If others were also damaged it may have originated from that knife or spread from another in close proximity. Once one goes it will take others with it, including knives not having any celluloid. Eventually, after long enough time, it can disintegrate the entire knife leaving nothing but rusted pieces.

Ken

Thanks, I tried to clean the one in the photos up, but it has DEEP pitting...and the others nearby all look similar...

[MadeinUSA]

Look at a lot of Fight'N Roosters that are outgassing to see what scale material was used. Then compare that to what you have.



That looks like a shell scaled knife to me. Are there tabs at the bolsters ends?

Sorry… don’t know what a tab on the holster end means…

You can see the tab inside of the bolsters on the right. It clips a shell scale to the liner/frame. Hope this helps.

Thank you, that helps explain. Mine does not have the tabs

[1967redrider]

I replied in the other post, GSP. That is outgassing but not from that knife. Better check the other 30 in that cigar box.

[GringoBombero]

Well I recently got a batch of knives from auction and sadly, a number of them seem to have celluloid scales in rough shape. I'm really bummed about the Brownie knife. I yanked the scales off as carefully as possible in hopes their may be some way to save them within an epoxy or something.
I'm pretty sure the answer is "trash can" but just checking if there was something I could do with them.
Single blade Kutmaster liner lock Brownie.
Remington barehead
Colonial Christmas tree EE jack

Should I yank the Colonial scales? Or not quite yet?

[1967redrider]

Wow, I've never seen a Kutmaster outgas like that. Thanks for posting, now I need to do some more separating.