Taking Apart A Slip Joint

[orvet]

I often get asked; "How do you take a knife apart?"

I ran across these pics I took of me taking apart a Schrade Old Timer #61OT. Here are the pictures I took.

It should be noted that a Schrade with Swinden Key construction can be taken apart by cutting the rocker pin (the one in the middle of the handles), then giving the handles about a 5º turn counterclockwise. Then the sides will come right off.

If you are trying to take a knife apart without damaging the handles, then the method in the pictures will work, and will work on most slipjoints whether they have the Swinden Key or not..

I hope this is helpful,
Dale

Step 1- Position a heavy duty disposable razor blade between the blade & liner. If the knife is multi-bladed, place the razor blade as close to the center of the knife as possible. Be sure that the razor blade does not bite into the liner, but runs parallel between the liner & blade.

Step 2- Tap the rear bolster of the knife with a soft-faced hammer to avoid damaging the bolster.

Step 3- After cutting the first pin, continue on to cut the rocker pin. On this step I moved the knife to where it is suspended between the canvas Micarta faces of my vise, so that the sides of the knife can pass on either side of the razor blade, & the between the jaws of the vise.

Step 4- Continue tapping the razor through the last pin. Be careful and don't hit it too hard or pieces of knife can fly in all directions. Just tap lightly & the knife will fall apart.

[W5RWU]

Thanks Dale
Randy

[Sqg1]

I gave it a try, works great. Thanks, Dale

[orvet]

Let us know how it works for you. Also please show us what you make from the knife you take apart.

Dale

[wildcat]

Orvet, if you cut the center pin and the knife falls apart in your hands, can the knife be reassembled and a new center pin installed or do you have to do through pins?

in other words, can you reuse the existing Swinden keys?

Thanks.

[Diligence]

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... p?id=19535

Wildcat - here is a photo of a small 3 blade Schrade, with the swinden keys intact. All I did was cut the center pin and I am working around the swinden keys.

cheers,
Jaye

[wildcat]

so it looks like as long as you don't take them off the blades you can prolly re-use them. correct?

is there a supplier of these?

[Darksev]

I've done a few swinden key knives (12ot's, 34ot's). It's a nice system if you can work around it.

If you cut out the "barbell" that goes through the blades, then your pretty much going to end up drilling out the bolsters for real pins. I've not found anywhere you can buy the barbells, they were most likely made in house for schrade with somewhat specialized equipment. The best answer for making them yourself I've seen is "have fun".

If you can work around the keys, leaving everything attached (and that's fun all by itself, 34ot is 3 blades, one spring and a brass center all connected together. it's a sliced finger waiting to happen) then all you need to do to put everything back together is replace the rocker pin you cut to get it apart.


Oh, and Dale's method of splitting a knife apart displayed here, top notch awesome.

[orvet]

so it looks like as long as you don't take them off the blades you can prolly re-use them. correct?
is there a supplier of these?

As long as you don't cut the Swinden rivet you can use the whole inner assembly over again, as long as the tolerances are still right. If the blade had a bit of wobble to it, then you will have to cut the rivets & use the pin-through-bolster method.

If I am just putting new handles on a otherwise good knife, then I do reuse the Swinden assembly and it works great. All you have to do is replace the rocker (center) pin. But once you cut either of the Swinden rivets, you have to drill out both bolsters and convert it to pin-through-bolster.

According to the info I have, i.e. from LT, Schrade was the only company to use the Swinden Key system. Dave Swinden, who worked for them for many years & invented the system. IIRC, he is one of the principals of Canal Street Cutlery now.

LT has seen the equipment used in making knives with the Swinden Key knives. I guess it is very impressive. I can see how it would be an advantage in manufacturing on a large scale (as Schrade did) but it does not simplify the repair process, not unless you have the machinery to set them up. It was easy for Schrade because they had the equipment, but everyone else struggles with them.

Schrade made 2 or 3 patterns of slipjoints for Buck. Buck said, “These are great, excellent quality, but can you loose the Swinden Key so we can repair them in our factory?” Schrade said “No.” So Buck took those patterns to someone else to have them made, probably Camillus.

I've done a few swinden key knives (12ot's, 34ot's). It's a nice system if you can work around it.

Oh, and Dale's method of splitting a knife apart displayed here, top notch awesome.

Thank you Darksev!
I am glad it worked for you.

To the best of my knowledge the only Swinden machinery was at Schrade. I don’t know where it is after the sale. The process is technical enough that I doubt anyone else would want to use it, without the system in place to manufacture the pieces necessary to assembly the knives. I can’t think of any American manufacturer (now days) who makes enough slipjoints to make the necessary investment profitable.

Dale

[wildcat]

thanks for the info. i'm in the process of redoing an old timer right now. i cut the swinden not knowing that was how it was made, so it will have to be pinned through the bolster now.

[jonet143]

making a sticky so it can be referenced.

[Rock3tman]

Thank you very much! i have been tinkering around trying to figure out an easier way to take a knife apart, and this works just fine.

[Jody744]

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... p?id=19535

Wildcat - here is a photo of a small 3 blade Schrade, with the swinden keys intact. All I did was cut the center pin and I am working around the swinden keys.

cheers,
Jaye

this link is no good... can it be re-posted???????? thanks

[orvet]

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... p?id=19535

Wildcat - here is a photo of a small 3 blade Schrade, with the swinden keys intact. All I did was cut the center pin and I am working around the swinden keys.

cheers,
Jaye

this link is no good... can it be re-posted???????? thanks

Jody,
I think the pic was lost a while back in a server change.
I just spent an hour looking for it, but can't find it.

Sorry,
Dale

[Diligence]

I think this was the photo that I had posted.

Hope it helps.

Jaye

[orvet]

If you were just looking for a pic of a Swinden type knife apart, with rivets intact, then I also have such a pic.

Note:
It was a Muskrat pattern, 77OT, with a broken blade.

Hope this helps,
Dale

[DaveT63]

If you were just looking for a pic of a Swinden type knife apart, with rivets intact, then I also have such a pic.

Note:
It was a Muskrat pattern, 77OT, with a broken blade.

Hope this helps,
Dale

Dale,
I'm not ANYWHERE NEAR ready to start working on folders myself yet, but I'm now curious. I may be missing something, though, which would not be surprising. My question is, how do you use your method of using a razor blade to take apart a slipjoint, WITHOUT cutting the swinden key? Is there a particular place to run the razor, like between a bolster and liner, or do you only go so far and then it comes apart? I'm especially curious about this on a knife like the 77OT you posted here, since it has blades on both ends.

Thanks,

Dave

[orvet]

Excellent question Dave.
If I am going to take a part a Swinden type knife and want to put it back together using the Swinden rivets, the process is entirely different.

A- Using a small flat file, carefully file the dome of the rocker pin flat so you can locate the center.

B- Using a spring-loaded punch locate the center of the pin and peen a center mark that is fairly deep.

C- Using a small burr or very small drill bit, drill deeply into the pin so that the hole goes down the shaft of the pin. Keep in mind on a Swinden knife the rocker pin is probably 3/32" in diameter. When I drill down the shaft I normally use a 1/16" drill.

D- Using a larger burr that is approximately the size of the head on the pin, grind down the pin head.

E- This next step is a bit tricky as it requires three hands or more. Open all the blades of the knife & compress the backsprings using a vice or a Camillus type knife vice to compress the spring, the Camillus type knife vice is the easiest way to do this and less likely to damage your knife.
Note -- Camillus type knife vice & usage: http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 38&t=10069

F- Insert the 1/16” pin punch into the 1/16" hole you have drilled in the pin and drive the pin out of the knife.

G- Grasping the handles and bolsters on one side, turn it counterclockwise until it comes loose, approximately 5° of turn in the counterclockwise direction.

If I'm in a hurry and I am going to replace the handle material on the knife anyway, I use a rotary tool, (such as a Dremel or Foredom), and a burr; to grind the head off the rocker pin. Then I go directly to step E.

The only reason I can think of to keep the Swinden key system intact is if I were going to replace the handle material and reassemble the knife using the Swinden key system. I have done this quite successfully, however if there needs to be any repair work done or blades replaced the Swinden rivets must be cut and the knife converted to pin-through-bolster construction.

I hope this answered your questions,
Dale

[RandyFew]

I cut into an Ulster boy scout knife recently to get a spring for another knife. I encountered this swinden pin system. Did schrade make any knives for ulster, or did ulster use this system too? I was going to make a single folder out of this knife. I guess that I will need to drill out the bolsters.

[orvet]

I cut into an Ulster boy scout knife recently to get a spring for another knife. I encountered this swinden pin system. Did schrade make any knives for ulster, or did ulster use this system too? I was going to make a single folder out of this knife. I guess that I will need to drill out the bolsters.

Randy,
The easy part of this question is drilling the bolster. Figure out the right diameter of drill bit to use, put the drill bit at the top of the narrow part of the keyhole and drill.
It is pretty easy actually.

It is much more difficult to answer the question, "Did Schrade make Ulster or did Ulster make Schrade? The Short Version: Albert Baer purchased Ulster in 1941. In 1946 he purchased Schrade Cutlery Co and renamed it Schrade Walden. In 1958 Schrade and Ulster moved their production to Ellenville New York. About 1962 Schrade started using the Swinden Key System; they were the only company to use that system. After 1958 Ulster knives were made in the Schrade factory, and Schrade started using the Swinden Key machinery to manufacture knives. They used it on the Ulster knives as well as on Schrade. The official end of Ulster knives was about 1972, though there were some knives made under the Ulster brand as late as 1985, these were made in the Camillus factory, also owned by Albert Baer.

If you read the post I made at the end of the following thread it will give you more information and some links to additional information on Swinden Key knives.

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... y&start=30

I hope this helps.

[RandyFew]

Thanks Dale! The more I do with this knife hobby, I learn something new with each knife.

[TinyDee]

Now so long ago but I am just trying to find these tools. I want the Camilus vise and where do you find a razor like that. That is necessary to take a pocket knife apart I think. I just do not know where to find any of this. But I do want to know...

[orvet]

Now so long ago but I am just trying to find these tools. I want the Camilus vise and where do you find a razor like that. That is necessary to take a pocket knife apart I think. I just do not know where to find any of this. But I do want to know...

David,
check your email.
I just sent you a couple links.

[kennyBilly]

I have several cold steel lock back folders. Bought in 2019 from Amazing.com. All dozen plus folders have terribly strong lock back spring that is at least #11 lbs to depress it to close these blades. Not sure all springs are the same length or not. I think they are all the same because the problem is in all models I bought at the same time. Several fixes has been proposed on YouTube. 1-Removal a machining .001 of the spring making it thinner. 2-Bending it's angle so it's straighter. 3-Putting spring in a vice and striking it with ball ping hammer. I contacted Cold Steel in 2019 in Ventura and they ignore me. I looked at GSM in Texas and they don't repair, send replacement parts. Only thing they will do is replacement of the defective product. The require reciept of purchase and i can't get that from Amazing for years 2019-2022. Even if the replace a knife? I have several that are not in production. GSM requires a return authorization and I requested return authorization and recieved nothing. I spoke about this spring issue on YouTube on one of their employees or fanboys? They didn't allow me to post the complaint. I wonder if I could get these springs manufactured by a machine shop? Probably more expensive than the knives. Anyone who can help me on this lock back spring issue. Would be appreciated. Thanks

[orvet]

You mentioned slip joints but also lock backs, typically the spring in a slip joint runs the full length of the knife and is anchored at the end with a through pin, unless there is a blade on both ends, then they are anchored by the center pin only.
The fix on a slip joint is different than a lock back. A smaller rocker pin will take away some of the tension on the spring and that might be enough to fix the issue. Just don't use too small a pin. If it is too loose it can wear the hole by moving around too much. Not the ideal fix, but that is the easiest way to address that issue. I would also take the knife apart and polish it and make sure there are no burrs on the blades or the springs. That alone might fix your problem.

A lock back generally has a bar spring that can be removed and replaced. Some companies have used a different type of spring, which consists of two flat springs that are held in position by the pins through the rear bolster of the knife. Those are almost impossible to replace unless you can get new springs from somewhere. There is a way around that, but you have to convert the knife to a bar spring by making a spacer with a notch in it to hold the bar spring.
If your knife comes with a bar spring, it is relatively easy to remove the old spring and replace it with a new piece of spring steel. You just have to bend the new piece of steel to the shape of the old piece. Jantz Supply sells bars of spring steel. I've also made them out of the spring in clamps.