Patterns that are Commonly Counterfeited

[btrwtr]

If you were to take the time to go though all the postings in this forum you might come up with a common denominator. That being there are several patterns of pocket knives that are often counterfeited and that in my mind always deserve a closer look to determine authenticity.

These knives are not cobbled reworks but newer factory made knives that have tang stamps of old brands or sometimes obscure and even non-existent companies. In most all cases these knives are in mint or very near mint condition. They look new because they are new.

Many collectors are aware of this but I am making this post hoping that it may save someone the heartache and trouble of purchasing of a counterfeit knife. Please note that these are all legitimate patterns of old collectible knives but they are patterns that all too often come up as fakes.

I have provided a fake example of each of these patterns for reference. In no particular order.

1. Cotton sampler knife.

2. Fishtail jack knife.

3. Eureka jack knife.

4. 4 1/4" single blade toothpick knife.

5. 2 Blade congress jack

[peanut740]

Wayne, you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

[supratentorial]

a LOT of sowbelly knives are complete counterfeits. There are also a lot of parts knives. Some are both. It was because of some posts in this counterfeit forum that I started a new topic in general discussion to show good examples of the sowbelly

Trappers used to be a highly collected pattern. Not so much now. But because of their previous popularity the market is already flooded with fakes with old marks.

I've noticed that some of the fakers seem to follow the release or popularity of patterns from GEC. "New" patterns from GEC often temporarily revive an interest in the oldies. And the fakers appear to be taking advantage of the interest.

[FRJ]

Good informative post, Wayne.

By golly, I didn't let that 2 blade congress jack get past me.

[btrwtr]

Joe, I always admire your taste in knives with this one exception.

Herrick would be a true but obscure brand stamp and this is typical of many of these commonly counterfeited patterns. If there are no known examples for comparison the fakers are free to paint on a blank pallet and come up with whatever bone jigging, shields etc. they want.

[Mumbleypeg]

Case 5383 whittlers are also counterfeited often. Maybe I'm just more attuned to them from having been burned myself. But I see a lot of these on eBay with the same thick sambar stag wrong for Tested era, and wrong shield (from 1970s dotted era). Master blade tang shaved down and re-stamped.

Ken

[espn77]

Maybe this is the thread where we all come clean of the bad knives we have bought. Harness Jack's. This one the saber clip isn't Remington, etch is fake, stamp is fake, handles look more schrade to me, definately not Remington. But it's mine, in the don't be a dumb @#$ pile.

[PaFolders87]

Most important forum in knife collecting. Good information guys. I’m learning a lot. Thank you.

[QTCut5]

Good informative post, Wayne.

By golly, I didn't let that 2 blade congress jack get past me.

Fake or not, that's a good looking knife, Joe. I'm curious if the word "Fake" was etched on the tang stamp before you bought it or did you add it after discovering it was actually a fake?

I would also like to point out that unless you're a stickler for accuracy (as most collectors obviously are), the technology today makes it possible to reproduce/counterfeit knives that in some cases are actually better than the originals they copied or at least as good as the originals in terms of quality of materials, fit & finish, etc., but the fakes are newer and free of the issues that naturally occur as a result of age. I have held both a genuine Lone Wolf Paul and a counterfeit of the same model and, to be perfectly honest, if I hadn't known which was which, I would not have been able to distinguish the real one from the fake one.

~Q~

[QTCut5]

Another observation...I just noticed that the eBay listing for the Pine Knot Congress Jack (last photo in OP) clearly states in the seller's description that the knife is a "parts knife assembled in the 1980s from old parts; 1930s parts, 1980s assembly." So, I'm wondering if that actually qualifies it as a counterfeit or a "fake" since, technically, it is composed of original parts from the 1930s, but it was assembled many years later. Apparently, there are many factors involved in declaring a knife to be counterfeit, one of which is the seller's intent when offering it for sale. I do not feel this seller was attempting to deceive anyone about the nature of this particular knife, in fact he was clearly trying to present it as honestly as he could based on his own personal knowledge. But, suppose he hadn't known the details about the origin of the knife and was simply selling a knife he picked up at an estate sale or flea market or pawn shop...would his ignorance about the provenance constitute deception when he put it up for sale? And, given that the knife is composed of genuine, original parts, does the year it was assembled make such a significant difference that the knife should be considered a counterfeit?

~Q~

Here's the original eBay listing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-BELKNA ... true&rt=nc

[americanedgetech]

That is a pretty darn good point Q.
I imagine if you knowingly buy a "fake" knife it can be just as enjoyable as any other knife.
I've said this before but I like trying to find these fakes or knives that come from "shifty" sources.
Some of the people that made/sold/imported knives are far more interesting than the knives themselves, and having examples of their wares is the best way that I know of to keep their history fresh.

[danno50]

Another observation...I just noticed that the eBay listing for the Pine Knot Congress Jack (last photo in OP) clearly states in the seller's description that the knife is a "parts knife assembled in the 1980s from old parts; 1930s parts, 1980s assembly." So, I'm wondering if that actually qualifies it as a counterfeit or a "fake" since, technically, it is composed of original parts from the 1930s, but it was assembled many years later. Apparently, there are many factors involved in declaring a knife to be counterfeit, one of which is the seller's intent when offering it for sale. I do not feel this seller was attempting to deceive anyone about the nature of this particular knife, in fact he was clearly trying to present it as honestly as he could based on his own personal knowledge. But, suppose he hadn't known the details about the origin of the knife and was simply selling a knife he picked up at an estate sale or flea market or pawn shop...would his ignorance about the provenance constitute deception when he put it up for sale? And, given that the knife is composed of genuine, original parts, does the year it was assembled make such a significant difference that the knife should be considered a counterfeit?

~Q~

Here's the original eBay listing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-BELKNA ... true&rt=nc

There is another thread discussing this knife. As peanut740 commented, the blades are not from the 30's, see first comment following the OP in the thread below. The knife is fake (counterfeit) because the blades and tang stamps are not original Pine Knot blades and stamps.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=54509

Dan

[QTCut5]

Consider this experience I had a couple of years ago (July, 2015):

I had just purchased what I believed to be a major score for my collection. So excited and thrilled was I with my "ultra rare" new acquisition, I wasted no time posting photos of it on AAPK so other knife aficionados could share in my joy. No sooner had I done so, however, than all the happiness was sucked right out of me as one member after another began informing me that my pride and joy was actually a fake. I felt as if a load of bricks had been dropped on my head; I was crestfallen. Now, as you can see, there's absolutely nothing wrong per se with the knife itself, in fact, it's quite a beautiful piece that would have looked great in my black pearl collection. But, once I found out it was counterfeit, for some reason that was sufficient to totally kill the allure; the 'magic' was gone; I couldn't even look at it without feeling sick to my stomach. I felt cheated, tricked, lied to, duped and made a fool of; my trust had been violated. Long story short, I returned the knife and got a full refund (thanks, tommygg101! He may be a dishonest, low-life, pond-scum knife seller, but, for whatever it's worth, at least he does give no-questions-asked refunds, I'll say that much for him). But, here's the funny thing that I learned after all was said and done: Had I never discovered that the knife was a fake, I would still have it in my collection today and I would very likely still feel joy and happiness every time I looked at it; a perfect example of the saying, "Ignorance is bliss" as ever there was. Another thing, I might have kept the knife anyway, even knowing it was a fake had I not paid top dollar for it...I mean, it was an attractive knife, forgery notwithstanding. So what's the lesson in all this? Perhaps not all counterfeit knives are intrinsically "bad", and, in some instances, it's simply the knowledge that a knife is a forgery that ruins it (at least from a collector's viewpoint).

~Q~

[FRJ]

Thank you, Q.
As to your last post, the same thing happened to me upon buying the congress jack that I posted. A real let down.
I scrawled the word "fake" on the tang. I wouldn't knowingly buy a fake knife.
I kept the knife because it is a lesson learned and I liked the representation of the pattern and also it could be a useful knife.
I have carried it briefly. I don't hold it in high esteem. I always find my self wincing when I see it.
It is unfortunate that we as collectors/accumulators have among us people who are willing to deceive those of us who enjoy the
collecting of knives. It's just a fact we have to accept. I do rely on my experience but truly I don't have the time to educate my self through study and in participation at knife shows and such. I love to buy knives and in my ignorance I make a bad choice now and again.Perhaps more than I know.
What I can't get beyond, and this is to americanedgetech's post:

That is a pretty darn good point Q.
I imagine if you knowingly buy a "fake" knife it can be just as enjoyable as any other knife.
I've said this before but I like trying to find these fakes or knives that come from "shifty" sources.
Some of the people that made/sold/imported knives are far more interesting than the knives themselves, and having examples of their wares is the best way that I know of to keep their history fresh.

why would any one consciously buy fake knives and be openly supportive of the frauds that sell them, on a knife forum?
I wonder how an explanation might sound to those of us who would like to keep a clean house.

[Mumbleypeg]

I agree with your assessment Joe. Why anyone would condone fraud escapes me. If one is enamored of dishonest people, go hang out at the local jail. Fraud is theft. Plain and simple.

Q's experience and yours is the same as mine. I purchased the whittler posted above in the early 1970s at a NKCDA show in Arlington, TX from a well known Tennessee knife dealer. I was young and naive, unaware that anyone would counterfeit a knife. I was very proud of it and made it the centerpiece of my growing whittler collection. Until several years later at a Mesquite, TX show when I showed the knife to Jim Sargent and Tony Foster, who gently told me it was a forgery and why. I told them (as if that was a justification for it's authenticity) who sold it to me. Their only comment was "not surprised" as they exchanged knowing looks between them.

Seems I am far from the only collector to be taken by that seller. (He's no longer with us so I see no point to naming him here). Quite a blow and a horrible feeling that put me off of knife collecting for a long while. Which is why I detest counterfeiters so much. They damage our hobby. They are thieves!

It's a beautiful knife. It's also a forgery. And a reminder to be wary, and not to let my impulse to obtain a treasure outweigh my skepticism and knowledge. I've occassionaly thought about carrying it but I still get that sinking knot in my gut when I see it so can't bring myself to looking at it daily. But I can use it to help educate others. If you don't know for sure what you're buying don't spend big bucks to get it!

Ken

[celluloidheros]

Where is myrtlefaye when you need him ? Guess which one is not a fake, there is only one. I believe that all of the fakes were made by the samew person and the bone work is excellent. getting bine to look old is an art form in itself. pearl, ebony and celluloid are easier.

Russell

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Cont

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Crown

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[espn77]

I'm going to guess the continental or Miller bros, but since I can only pick one. Continental???

[peanut740]

The Case Brothers toenail is the only non fake stamp.

[espn77]

Guess I read the question wrong. stinking Muleshoe Tx school system

[americanedgetech]

Thank you, Q.
As to your last post, the same thing happened to me upon buying the congress jack that I posted. A real let down.
I scrawled the word "fake" on the tang. I wouldn't knowingly buy a fake knife.
I kept the knife because it is a lesson learned and I liked the representation of the pattern and also it could be a useful knife.
I have carried it briefly. I don't hold it in high esteem. I always find my self wincing when I see it.
It is unfortunate that we as collectors/accumulators have among us people who are willing to deceive those of us who enjoy the
collecting of knives. It's just a fact we have to accept. I do rely on my experience but truly I don't have the time to educate my self through study and in participation at knife shows and such. I love to buy knives and in my ignorance I make a bad choice now and again.Perhaps more than I know.
What I can't get beyond, and this is to americanedgetech's post:

That is a pretty darn good point Q.
I imagine if you knowingly buy a "fake" knife it can be just as enjoyable as any other knife.
I've said this before but I like trying to find these fakes or knives that come from "shifty" sources.
Some of the people that made/sold/imported knives are far more interesting than the knives themselves, and having examples of their wares is the best way that I know of to keep their history fresh.

why would any one consciously buy fake knives and be openly supportive of the frauds that sell them, on a knife forum?
I wonder how an explanation might sound to those of us who would like to keep a clean house.

Well I see it as pretty simple really.
I wouldn't purposely buy a fake/counterfeit knife from a seller that is trying to defraud the buyer but I would buy one from a person that is representing it as such.
The reason in my way of thinking is to have these knives to study the build, and to show/display them for educational purposes.
Much like CelluloidHero's post above.

If you can spot subtle patterns in craftsmanship or some peculiarity that the maker left behind, it may help in spotting their work on future knives.Much like cabinet forgers used to leave a penny in the work somewhere, or their mark someplace inconspicuous... like a dimple behind a drawer pull...

There was an A Jordon knife for sale on FleaBay that I wanted solely because the fella that imported, and stamped them in the early 1920's was in legal trouble with the IRS for importing NON stamped German knives, and claiming they were built here in the U.S..
There are many knives out there with scandal behind their makers, and I enjoy that aspect of knowing I have an item that was put on the market with poor intentions but I now have that item to learn from.
I never would have heard of A Jordon or his story if it were not for a knife on the Flea...

Many of you fellas have counterfeits... If it a terrible thing for me to wish to acquire them, and control their fate, I will ask why those of you that one one or more have not destroyed them?
My reasons for seeking them are I image much the same as the reasons many of you keep yours.

Hope that I expressed myself correctly.

[espn77]

By golly, I didn't let that 2 blade congress jack get past me.

I like that you marked your knife Joe, that way no matter what happens to your knife it will always be known as a fake. Nevada Jerry also has a good solution to fakes he has acquired. Shoots them with his deer rifle. I do keep mine as a reference, as a young collector they probably won't be the last fake knives I buy by accident. I do think it is important to the hobby for them to not filter back into circulation.

[FRJ]

Thank you, Keith.

[btrwtr]

In my mind to knowingly buy a fake serves to perpetuate their existence. Creating demand and creating a market for them.

[americanedgetech]

In my mind to knowingly buy a fake serves to perpetuate their existence. Creating demand and creating a market for them.

Well sir we will have to disagree on this point because I feel that studying them, AND taking them off the market is a win/win for collectors.
I get to learn more about how they were made. Perhaps find something that will prevent future buyers from falling victim, and I know where that knife is. It's not going to circulate as the forgery that it started out as.

Unfortunately however... Forgeries will NEVER be stopped, and the shady people that make them will constantly improve their craft whether they are bought, sold, burned or blown up..
You collect "X", and I collect "Y". We all have our reasons, and not everyone agrees with them or understands them.

[btrwtr]

Counterfeiter makes a knife and someone buys it. Do you think he will make another?

Counterfeiter makes a knife and no one buys it. Do you think he will make another?

Supply and demand. Not brain surgery is it?