who makes it matters?

[enuf]

Here is what I think I am seeing - let know if I am on the right track,

1) Case makes all of their own knives
2) Does Case make knives for other companies?
3) Companies like Remington and Winchester have China runs and USA runs
4) Are there cheesy USA companies that would be comparable to China made
5) If, say Remington, outsources a USA company to make a particular knife would they use a cheesy company
6) If Remington gives their specs to a quality USA company - does it matter who that maker is
7) I am guessing a maker can make it to "spec" and not have the fit and finish of another company

See where I am going with this? I'd surly take and appreciate some guidance...

[OLDE CUTLER]

Only one I can comment on is #3. Remington and Winchester no longer exist as companies, only as names that someone owns.

[Mumbleypeg]

Case currently makes all their own knives, in U.S.A. They have marketing partnerships with a couple of other companies like Southern Grind and Winkler knives, all U.S.A. made. Case sometimes makes knives for others, (Moore Maker for example). Case has made knives for Clauss, and for some hardware companies. Those are highly collectable.

In the past Case has had some knives made by others, (Kinfolks, in which they were part owner), ALCAS (jointly owned by Alcoa and Case), KABAR, among others. Again all U.S. made. In the past Case has had knives made in Germany - those are clearly stamped “Germany”. Case makes some knives in China - those are stamped TekX, they are not stamped Case. It’s complicated, but that’s a summary.

Case has a very long history in cutlery. The Case “family tree” of cutleries they have owned or operated takes up two full pages in Levine’s Guide to Knives.

Ken

[rea1eye]

Ken certainly explained everything about Case very well. Interesting set of
questions too.

Bob

[philco]

I can comment on No.5. A few years ago Remington sold a series of reproduction Boy Scout knives. They contracted with Bear and Sons to produce them. They were supposedly made to the original specs. Nothing could have been further from the truth regarding adherence to original build. The Bear made knives were, in my humble opinion, a major disappointment and a far cry from the quality of the original knives they were a "copy" of.

[Mumbleypeg]

Here is what I think I am seeing - let know if I am on the right track,

1) Case makes all of their own knives
2) Does Case make knives for other companies?
3) Companies like Remington and Winchester have China runs and USA runs
4) Are there cheesy USA companies that would be comparable to China made
5) If, say Remington, outsources a USA company to make a particular knife would they use a cheesy company
6) If Remington gives their specs to a quality USA company - does it matter who that maker is
7) I am guessing a maker can make it to "spec" and not have the fit and finish of another company

See where I am going with this? I'd surly take and appreciate some guidance...

Number 4, depends on what you mean by “cheesy”. The range of relative quality is a broad spectrum. Some excellent quality knives are now being made in China. (I refuse to buy any, but that has little to do with quality). Location of manufacturing, whether U.S., China or elsewhere can be poor to great, and the prices often are a reflection of that quality.

Number 7. If the company does not have a workforce skilled enough to make a knife meeting “spec”, they won’t consistently meet it regardless. IMHO that is a problem that plagues factory-made knives. We are now several generations removed from the early 20th century cutlers’ skills, learned from master cutlers during the days of apprenticeship. As that generation retires or dies, many if not most of those skills have been lost. Some of the replacement workforce “gets it”, but many don’t, and don’t care. Pride of workmanship is no longer commonplace. You can’t “inspect in” quality. It has to be built in by the manufacturing worker. And most importantly the company’s management processes.

Ken

[enuf]

Only one I can comment on is #3. Remington and Winchester no longer exist as companies, only as names that someone owns.

I figured that was likely be the case; but, as long as they are putting their name on it - it's their product.

[enuf]

Case currently makes all their own knives, in U.S.A. They have marketing partnerships with a couple of other companies like Southern Grind and Winkler knives, all U.S.A. made. Case sometimes makes knives for others, (Moore Maker for example). Case has made knives for Clauss, and for some hardware companies. Those are highly collectable.

In the past Case has had some knives made by others, (Kinfolks, in which they were part owner), ALCAS (jointly owned by Alcoa and Case), KABAR, among others. Again all U.S. made. In the past Case has had knives made in Germany - those are clearly stamped “Germany”. Case makes some knives in China - those are stamped TekX, they are not stamped Case. It’s complicated, but that’s a summary.

Case has a very long history in cutlery. The Case “family tree” of cutleries they have owned or operated takes up two full pages in Levine’s Guide to Knives.

Ken

I'm gonna dig in here if you don't mind.

a) They have marketing partnerships with a couple of other companies like Southern Grind and Winkler knives, all U.S.A. made.

• so this partnership, they make knives for Southern Grind and Winkler or Grind and Winkler "made" some knives for Case?

b) Case sometimes makes knives for others, (Moore Maker for example).

• Still?

c) sounds like I need to find a book called Levine's Guide to Knives and do me some reading.

[enuf]

I can comment on No.5. A few years ago Remington sold a series of reproduction Boy Scout knives. They contracted with Bear and Sons to produce them. They were supposedly made to the original specs. Nothing could have been further from the truth regarding adherence to original build. The Bear made knives were, in my humble opinion, a major disappointment and a far cry from the quality of the original knives they were a "copy" of.

I would think - just me thinking, since I employ a staff of inspectors - I would think if they did NOT meet the standards specified in the specs they could/would reject them as soon as they noticed the deficiencies. I mean, was it the blades, the liners, the scales, the holes out of tolerance - each step should have had an initial inspection through the process. At least, that is how I try to ensure my work is quality. Maybe knife manufacturing and assembly is different.

[enuf]

Here is what I think I am seeing - let know if I am on the right track,

1) Case makes all of their own knives
2) Does Case make knives for other companies?
3) Companies like Remington and Winchester have China runs and USA runs
4) Are there cheesy USA companies that would be comparable to China made
5) If, say Remington, outsources a USA company to make a particular knife would they use a cheesy company
6) If Remington gives their specs to a quality USA company - does it matter who that maker is
7) I am guessing a maker can make it to "spec" and not have the fit and finish of another company

See where I am going with this? I'd surly take and appreciate some guidance...

Number 4, depends on what you mean by “cheesy”. The range of relative quality is a broad spectrum. Some excellent quality knives are now being made in China. (I refuse to buy any, but that has little to do with quality). Location of manufacturing, whether U.S., China or elsewhere can be poor to great, and the prices often are a reflection of that quality.

Number 7. If the company does not have a workforce skilled enough to make a knife meeting “spec”, they won’t consistently meet it regardless. IMHO that is a problem that plagues factory-made knives. We are now several generations removed from the early 20th century cutlers’ skills, learned from master cutlers during the days of apprenticeship. As that generation retires or dies, many if not most of those skills have been lost. Some of the replacement workforce “gets it”, but many don’t, and don’t care. Pride of workmanship is no longer commonplace. You can’t “inspect in” quality. It has to be built in by the manufacturing worker. And most importantly the company’s management processes.

Ken

By cheesy I mean - I have bought knives as promotions, I have actually probably bought many-many hundreds of Case knives if not north of a thousand. And for other promotions I have bought boxes of, well those "if you buy 300 or more $1.10 each kind - surely off on my price but you get the point.

Number 7 is a good reason to write in detail - no wiggle room. A cheap bid quote should make a Project Manager take a double look and ask questions.

[Ivoryman]

Here is what I think I am seeing - let know if I am on the right track,

1) Case makes all of their own knives
2) Does Case make knives for other companies?
3) Companies like Remington and Winchester have China runs and USA runs
4) Are there cheesy USA companies that would be comparable to China made
5) If, say Remington, outsources a USA company to make a particular knife would they use a cheesy company
6) If Remington gives their specs to a quality USA company - does it matter who that maker is
7) I am guessing a maker can make it to "spec" and not have the fit and finish of another company

See where I am going with this? I'd surly take and appreciate some guidance...

1) Case does not make all their own knives. I have some of their Case Classics that were made by Queen Cutlery Co. They have Queen put Case stamps and sheilds on them as If Case made them,, but not. Here's one on top.

[Mumbleypeg]

I'm gonna dig in here if you don't mind.

a) They have marketing partnerships with a couple of other companies like Southern Grind and Winkler knives, all U.S.A. made.

• so this partnership, they make knives for Southern Grind and Winkler or Grind and Winkler "made" some knives for Case?

b) Case sometimes makes knives for others, (Moore Maker for example).

• Still?

c) sounds like I need to find a book called Levine's Guide to Knives and do me some reading.

Case doesn’t make knives for Southern Grind or Winkler, and neither make knives for Case. They serve different segments of the cutlery market. Case sells those companies’ products through the Case distribution/dealership network, and advertises their product in Case ads. In return Case gets access to the technology for making those products, and “influencer” representatives from those companies attend Case events. Case is trying to pull in customers from those companies to gain market share, and visa versa. It’s a mutually beneficial marketing deal, not a reciprocal manufacturing agreement.

I’ve purchased Case-made knives stamped “Moore Maker” within the recent couple of years. Knives stamped Moore Maker, that were made by Case are available for sale at Moore Maker’s dealers, and their web site . Again, a mutually beneficial arrangement. Whether those knives were made last week, last month, or last year I do not know, and I don’t know what the current day agreements are between the two companies.

Ken

[enuf]

sounds like lots of back scratching going on. So, I guess when Reminton wants to produce a good USA knife they will just let it out for bid instead of sticking with a proven company for them. Not saying that is necessarily wrong, but it may be beneficial if they have a limited list of quality cutlers to make their products so as to keep a good reputation.

[edgy46]

Case Classics are a whole other thing.
Jim Parker owned Case and made a deal to build
knives with the Case name. Some people do not consider them as real Case knives. Most were built by Queen. Just my thoughts on Case Classics.

[Mumbleypeg]

1) Case dies not make all their own knives. I have some of their Case Classics that were made by Queen Cutlery Co. They have Queen put Case stamps and sheilds on them as If Case made them,, but not. Here's one on top.

I-man, if you’re referring to my post saying Case makes their own knives, it is current tense.

Regarding Queen, it is no longer in business (although since their bankruptcy, the Queen name is now owned by another party). Queen may have at some time made knives for Case - I’m not going to say they never did. (Never is a strong statement! ). But if so I’m not aware of any. I’d be interested to know if Steve Pfeiffer knows of any Case knives made by Queen. Maybe he’ll see this and comment.

Case Classics (the example you’ve shown) that were made by Queen, those were made for Blue Grass cutlery under contract with James Parker. Although they have Case on the tang stamps and shields, they were not made for Case. The resulting knives were marketed, distributed, and sold through Blue Grass, not Case. The Case Classics were a “side deal” made by Parker, not by Case Cutlery. For most folks that’s probably a technicality, but it is what it is.

Ken

[enuf]

Just a quick search of Blue Grass, since I was unfamiliar with them, they say “made in the USA” and I poked on a couple of them and it appears Winchester is having Blue Grass make some for them. Although all of them I poked on are out of stock. Are these Blue Grass of good quality - comparable to say a Case. I hate asking wide open questions like that, sorry - I have just never heard of them

[Mumbleypeg]

Blue Grass Cutlery is somewhat of a mystery regarding whether or not they actually have a manufacturing operation, or are just a “middleman” and marketing operation with knives being made by others. There are rumors and speculation, but those who know, aren’t saying.

Several years ago the Moores (Moore Maker) told me Blue Grass was the middleman for their knives. Queen was the manufacturer of most of their knives at that time (Utica, Canal Street were others) but their business dealings were with Blue Grass. Moore Maker parted ways with Queen a few years before Queen’s demise.

Blue Grass owns (or owned) the license from Olin Corporation (owner of the Winchester brand name) to produce knives using the Winchester name, and also produce knives having the John Primble brand, which Blue Grass owns. At one time Queen made those knives for Blue Grass. At the time of Queen Cutlery bankruptcy there was speculation regarding what would happen to those brands and who would make them. You can find discussions and speculation here on AAPK via the search capability, but I don’t recall anything definitive.

Quality? I don’t own any recently made Winchester or John Primbles but those i have seen were good knives.

Ken

[treefarmer]

Let me add to this thread what is in my possession, one of the Case/Southern Grind knives.
1st the knife was a gift and I love it for that reason, not my style of knife however.
It is a bit confusing when reading the paperwork that accompanied the knife, that is inside the box.
Check the pictures and tell me who made the knife or who is responsible for it.

Read the box.

Again, read the box.

signed paper by Southern Grind employees

Also, in the box, a standard Case product info sheet.

Here's the beast.

Blade stamped CASE XX

Granted I'm a bit old and slow but explain how these Case/ S.G. knives come to be?
Treefarmer

[Mumbleypeg]

Not sure if it helps or adds confusion but this series of posts on Blade Forum is interesting. Note the young long hair icon’s (Spy Smasher Lead Guitar) comments regarding the Case/Southern Grind alliance. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/cas ... e.1549446/ This exemplifies the market Case was going for. An internet search for “Case Southern Grind Alliance” will find a lot more including press releases from both companies. Also interesting is that Case has since introduced their own line of similar modern (and similarly priced) “flippers” made in the Case factory in Bradford, PA.

Here’s the inside front cover ad from the current (January 2024) issue of Knife Magazine.

Ken

[1967redrider]

I guess I would take a "cheesy" USA made knife over a Chinese made knife.

[peanut740]

Blue Grass Cutlery is somewhat of a mystery regarding whether or not they actually have a manufacturing operation, or are just a “middleman” and marketing operation with knives being made by others. There are rumors and speculation, but those who know, aren’t saying.

Several years ago the Moores (Moore Maker) told me Blue Grass was the middleman for their knives. Queen was the manufacturer of most of their knives at that time (Utica, Canal Street were others) but their business dealings were with Blue Grass. Moore Maker parted ways with Queen a few years before Queen’s demise.

Blue Grass owns (or owned) the license from Olin Corporation (owner of the Winchester brand name) to produce knives using the Winchester name, and also produce knives having the John Primble brand, which Blue Grass owns. At one time Queen made those knives for Blue Grass. At the time of Queen Cutlery bankruptcy there was speculation regarding what would happen to those brands and who would make them. You can find discussions and speculation here on AAPK via the search capability, but I don’t recall anything definitive.

Quality? I don’t own any recently made Winchester or John Primbles but those i have seen were good knives.

Ken

Ken,I will assure you Bluegrass makes knives.At one time Queen made parts for them and Bluegrass put then together. Queen hadn't made parts for Bluegrass since at least 2010.And they do almost all steps in knife production. I know they do get certain blades water jetted from an outside source.
Bluegrass has much more capacity than GEC and they also build more brands than just Winchester and John Primble. You would be shocked.

[edge213]

Blue Grass Cutlery is somewhat of a mystery regarding whether or not they actually have a manufacturing operation, or are just a “middleman” and marketing operation with knives being made by others. There are rumors and speculation, but those who know, aren’t saying.

Several years ago the Moores (Moore Maker) told me Blue Grass was the middleman for their knives. Queen was the manufacturer of most of their knives at that time (Utica, Canal Street were others) but their business dealings were with Blue Grass. Moore Maker parted ways with Queen a few years before Queen’s demise.

Blue Grass owns (or owned) the license from Olin Corporation (owner of the Winchester brand name) to produce knives using the Winchester name, and also produce knives having the John Primble brand, which Blue Grass owns. At one time Queen made those knives for Blue Grass. At the time of Queen Cutlery bankruptcy there was speculation regarding what would happen to those brands and who would make them. You can find discussions and speculation here on AAPK via the search capability, but I don’t recall anything definitive.

Quality? I don’t own any recently made Winchester or John Primbles but those i have seen were good knives.

Ken

Ken,I will assure you Bluegrass makes knives.At one time Queen made parts for them and Bluegrass put then together. Queen hadn't made parts for Bluegrass since at least 2010.And they do almost all steps in knife production. I know they do get certain blades water jetted from an outside source.
Bluegrass has much more capacity than GEC and they also build more brands than just Winchester and John Primble. You would be shocked.

Thanks for this information Roger. It answers some questions that I had.
By the way, have you found any Wabash lately?

[peanut740]

Blue Grass Cutlery is somewhat of a mystery regarding whether or not they actually have a manufacturing operation, or are just a “middleman” and marketing operation with knives being made by others. There are rumors and speculation, but those who know, aren’t saying.

Several years ago the Moores (Moore Maker) told me Blue Grass was the middleman for their knives. Queen was the manufacturer of most of their knives at that time (Utica, Canal Street were others) but their business dealings were with Blue Grass. Moore Maker parted ways with Queen a few years before Queen’s demise.

Blue Grass owns (or owned) the license from Olin Corporation (owner of the Winchester brand name) to produce knives using the Winchester name, and also produce knives having the John Primble brand, which Blue Grass owns. At one time Queen made those knives for Blue Grass. At the time of Queen Cutlery bankruptcy there was speculation regarding what would happen to those brands and who would make them. You can find discussions and speculation here on AAPK via the search capability, but I don’t recall anything definitive.

Quality? I don’t own any recently made Winchester or John Primbles but those i have seen were good knives.

Ken

Ken,I will assure you Bluegrass makes knives.At one time Queen made parts for them and Bluegrass put then together. Queen hadn't made parts for Bluegrass since at least 2010.And they do almost all steps in knife production. I know they do get certain blades water jetted from an outside source.
Bluegrass has much more capacity than GEC and they also build more brands than just Winchester and John Primble. You would be shocked.

Thanks for this information Roger. It answers some questions that I had.
By the way, have you found any Wabash lately?

Not lately David.

[tvic]

Buck is the one that you need to be careful about. They do produce knives in the USA, but they also have a lot produced in China. Just because it says Buck on the knife doesn’t mean it was made in the USA. Price is usually the giveaway.

[Mumbleypeg]

Thanks for that information Roger, it’s more definitive than anything I’ve seen in the past. I thought about you when I was writing that post - I figured with your Maher & Grosch involvement you might know first-hand about Blue Grass. Credible information about the operation has always seemed evasive, so thanks for sharing that.

Ken