pattern numbers

[flynbulldog]

I've seen people referencing numbers rather than pattern when describing their knives. I'm wondering if numbers carry across brands? Are Case Queen and GEC 44's all the same or similar pattern? How about the old makers Camulus, Western, Shrade etc?
If not, why reference the number without the manufacturer? How are we supposed to know what you are talking about?

If there is unity in describing patterns by number can someone please provide a link to that info

Thanks

[ea42]

There's little to no unity between brands. A few might use the first number to designate how many blades are in the knife but after that everything's up for grabs, especially with numbers for different handle materials. Usually folks who mention pattern numbers are just referring to the brand they happen to be discussing, which is usually the brand that they collect so they have a knowledge of the different patterns and their associated numbers.

Eric

[Mumbleypeg]

Cattaraugus, Case, Robeson, Remington (maybe a few others I can’t think of at the moment) all had pattern number schemes that were mostly consistent within their brand. More recently Canal Street and GEC have used similar schemes. The “code” for most of them can be found in the Research section here on AAPK. https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/page/research.php However there was no commonality from one brand to another, unless it was happenstance.

Offhand I can’t recall seeing the situation you’ve described in the OP, unless it was someone posting in that brand’s forum or it was a post in a thread about a particular brand. In that case a reference to a pattern number is in the context of that thread. Not saying it never happens but I haven’t noticed it being prevalent.

Ken

[flynbulldog]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was prevalent. I was just curious and I get confused by the numbers. Sometimes I get confused by the names too, many companies will make very similar patterns and have different names for them. GEC seems to have their own take on all of their traditional pattern builds. For example they recently released an obvious "muskrat" and call it a "coon skinner"

I'd really like to find a code sheet for schatt and morgan - all of their knives from the last 30 years or so have pattern numbers on the blades but I have no idea how to decode them.

[ea42]

Schatt and Morgan Patterns:

https://queencutleryguide.com/wp-conten ... -1.0-1.pdf

Eric

[Mumbleypeg]

GEC seems to have their own take on all of their traditional pattern builds. For example they recently released an obvious "muskrat" and call it a "coon skinner"

I know what you mean about GEC’s pattern names. I’ve commented about that before. Their marketing folks either know nothing about pre-existing pattern names, don’t care, assume their customers don’t know better - or they do it on purpose! A lot of their customers probably don’t know any better, but that’s inconsequential. At least they’re buying traditional pocket knife patterns! And keeping U.S. workers employed.

Ken

[flynbulldog]

Schatt and Morgan Patterns:

https://queencutleryguide.com/wp-conten ... -1.0-1.pdf

Eric

yeah I've seen that but it doesnt pan out with any of my knifes' numbers

[ea42]

Schatt and Morgan Patterns:

https://queencutleryguide.com/wp-conten ... -1.0-1.pdf

Eric

yeah I've seen that but it doesnt pan out with any of my knifes' numbers

Sorry I didn't read your post closely enough, I thought you were referring to the old Schatts. For the Queen repros you'd probably have to check the catalogs here. I think they started making them around 1990 so there are going to be some holes on what's offered on this site. The first catalog they show the knives in is the 1995 catalog so they lack the previous four years:

https://queencutleryhistory.com/index.p ... -catalogs/

Eric

[flynbulldog]

Schatt and Morgan Patterns:

https://queencutleryguide.com/wp-conten ... -1.0-1.pdf

Eric

yeah I've seen that but it doesnt pan out with any of my knifes' numbers

Sorry I didn't read your post closely enough, I thought you were referring to the old Schatts. For the Queen repros you'd probably have to check the catalogs here. I think they started making them around 1990 so there are going to be some holes on what's offered on this site. The first catalog they show the knives in is the 1995 catalog since they lack the previous four years:

https://queencutleryhistory.com/index.p ... -catalogs/

Eric

Thanks Eric, I don't think I was specific enough about the era. I have a few older knives but lately I've been collecting stuff out of Titusville. For me that seems to be the quality sweet spot. I do reference that excellent queen history website and they've done a great job but it isn't comprehensive on the later offerings. I wish it had a number code table like Case and GEC have.

[ea42]

Flynbulldog I just checked out one of those catalog pages, I think the 1996, and from what I can see it looks like the first two numbers are handle material, the third number is the number of blades, and the last three numbers (or whatever numbers are left) are the pattern number. So for instance knife number 053046 is pearl(05), three blades (3), wharncliffe whittler (046). It doesn't look like they differentiate between bone colors like Case. From what I see all the bone is 04. Burnt stag is 03. You could peruse the catalogs and make your own little database for future reference. That'd be pretty cool. I'd imagine someone might have already done that, maybe Queen themselves, but I haven't been able to find anything.

One thing though, after checking a few of the later catalogs I see that some of the File and Wire knives have an extra number, and some of the regular series knives' blade count numbers don't match up. For instance a two blade moose from 2006 shows as 041155 when it seems it should really be 042155, so I'm not sure what's going on there. Maybe a misprint or some secret code that no one knows about LOL.

Eric

[ken98k]

I think the different names for similar patterns has to do with ownership of intellectual property.
For example every company makes a knife similar to a Case "Sod Buster," but they all call by a different name.

[treefarmer]

Reading the responses to flynbulldog, my comment is that there not much rhyme or reason to anything in the pocketknife world, some of the peculiarities have been pointed out. Our beloved Case knife manufacturer lists 3 totally different handle materials all identified by the number 6, bone, Delrin and Pakkawood. That's just one of the many, many things that makes the knife hobby interesting, dating is another difficult issue. Until 1970, Case knives could be identified as made in a certain era, then the yearly dot system was instituted. Dating became easier but knowledge of the "lightening "S" in the stamp created little quirks, the various ways the "C" in Case was drawn, the differences keep expanding.
I've gotten some very good deals on "unmarked" knives, a period/era when Queen had no stamp at all. Just knowing that fact and being able to identify imitation Winterbottom bone handles has provided me with several nice Queens.
I suppose such comments about the little peculiarities of different brands would fill several pages.
Treefarmer

[OLDE CUTLER]

I think the different names for similar patterns has to do with ownership of intellectual property.
For example every company makes a knife similar to a Case "Sod Buster," but they all call by a different name.

Exactly, if one company tried to use the same name and numbers as another company, there would be a lawsuit.

[313 Mike]

Reading the responses to flynbulldog, my comment is that there not much rhyme or reason to anything in the pocketknife world, some of the peculiarities have been pointed out. Our beloved Case knife manufacturer lists 3 totally different handle materials all identified by the number 6, bone, Delrin and Pakkawood. That's just one of the many, many things that makes the knife hobby interesting, dating is another difficult issue. Until 1970, Case knives could be identified as made in a certain era, then the yearly dot system was instituted. Dating became easier but knowledge of the "lightening "S" in the stamp created little quirks, the various ways the "C" in Case was drawn, the differences keep expanding.
I've gotten some very good deals on "unmarked" knives, a period/era when Queen had no stamp at all. Just knowing that fact and being able to identify imitation Winterbottom bone handles has provided me with several nice Queens.
I suppose such comments about the little peculiarities of different brands would fill several pages.
Treefarmer

Great post Phllip, I am always finding new peculiarities about this hobby myself! Good tip on the Queens, their winterbottom bone and imitation are quite distinctive.
The term "jack knife" is another one that has alot of uses...

[royal0014]

If every company made the same thing and used the same numbers,
this little hobby of ours would be very generic and totally boring . . . . .

[flynbulldog]

I think the different names for similar patterns has to do with ownership of intellectual property.
For example every company makes a knife similar to a Case "Sod Buster," but they all call by a different name.

Exactly, if one company tried to use the same name and numbers as another company, there would be a lawsuit.

I dont think so, Some of those patterns and names are 100 or 150 years old or more and those patterns and names have been made and used by dozens of companies. Remember, back in the early 1900's there were a multitude of knife makers in the US and every one of them made a "stockman", for example, some had slight variations; rounded vs squared bolsters, or slight curves, but most were steadfast to the main design elements.

In 2017 GEC made a "stockman" pattern but they call it the "calf roper" They certainly could have used the stockman name for the pattern - but I think they are choosing to do their own thing and only hint at their designs origins. I don't believe there exists a trademark or legal ownership for 100 year old pattern names. How many companies make a lockback hunter that are virtually indistinguishable from each other?

Of course this is all speculation on my part.

[OLDE CUTLER]

I think the different names for similar patterns has to do with ownership of intellectual property.
For example every company makes a knife similar to a Case "Sod Buster," but they all call by a different name.

Exactly, if one company tried to use the same name and numbers as another company, there would be a lawsuit.

I dont think so, Some of those patterns and names are 100 or 150 years old or more and those patterns and names have been made and used by dozens of companies. Remember, back in the early 1900's there were a multitude of knife makers in the US and every one of them made a "stockman", for example, some had slight variations; rounded vs squared bolsters, or slight curves, but most were steadfast to the main design elements.

In 2017 GEC made a "stockman" pattern but they call it the "calf roper" They certainly could have used the stockman name for the pattern - but I think they are choosing to do their own thing and only hint at their designs origins. I don't believe there exists a trademark or legal ownership for 100 year old pattern names. How many companies make a lockback hunter that are virtually indistinguishable from each other?

Of course this is all speculation on my part.

Sorry I did not make it clear that I was not including companies from 100-150 years ago. Back then there were gentlemans agreements so companies did not infringe on each other. By including GEC in your discussion I thought you were referring more modern times. But on the other hand there certainly were patents, infringements, and cease and desists all those years ago. Any company can indeed make a lockback hunter, the patent has certainly expired on that decades ago. But generally they dont use the same name and model number as another company or there would be confusion leading to problems.

[flynbulldog]

Exactly, if one company tried to use the same name and numbers as another company, there would be a lawsuit.

I dont think so, Some of those patterns and names are 100 or 150 years old or more and those patterns and names have been made and used by dozens of companies. Remember, back in the early 1900's there were a multitude of knife makers in the US and every one of them made a "stockman", for example, some had slight variations; rounded vs squared bolsters, or slight curves, but most were steadfast to the main design elements.

In 2017 GEC made a "stockman" pattern but they call it the "calf roper" They certainly could have used the stockman name for the pattern - but I think they are choosing to do their own thing and only hint at their designs origins. I don't believe there exists a trademark or legal ownership for 100 year old pattern names. How many companies make a lockback hunter that are virtually indistinguishable from each other?

Of course this is all speculation on my part.

Sorry I did not make it clear that I was not including companies from 100-150 years ago. Back then there were gentlemans agreements so companies did not infringe on each other. By including GEC in your discussion I thought you were referring more modern times. But on the other hand there certainly were patents, infringements, and cease and desists all those years ago. Any company can indeed make a lockback hunter, the patent has certainly expired on that decades ago. But generally they dont use the same name and model number as another company or there would be confusion leading to problems.

I see your point but GEC is mostly making knife patterns that are certainly 100 years old or more and none of those patents or trade marks are still viable or enforceable today.

We should probably separate the number discussion from the name discussion, I do see names used by many different manufacturers for a specific pattern but each has its own numbering system, and that makes perfect sense to me.

My original intent on this topic was to see if I could locate some info that would decode the numbering systems used by companies other than Case and GEC (both which are readily available on their websites)

Mainly I would like to learn about the Queen and Schatt & Morgan knives made in Titusville because that is mostly what I'm collecting.
I do use the Queen history website quite a bit and it has been helpful but it doesnt have a codex for the modern stuff

[gsmith7158]

I would suspect that the numbering systems used by many companies are strictly for internal company record keeping if they ever kept any that is. As knife collectors we all know that the abscense of of written records is one of the things that confounds our search for answers in historical chronology of certain patterns or brands. One of the strangest developments in recent history to me is the use of item numbers by Case in addition to their standard identification patterns and handle material numbers. Go figure!

[treefarmer]

This site, https://iknifecollector.com/group/queen ... rn-numbers, shows what I would call the "old numbers" and a "new numbers" lists. The new numbers list is also tagged, "Current Pattern Numbers for Daniels era Queens". Some of the numbers match, some are totally different from era to era.
Treefarmer

[ken98k]

my comment is that there not much rhyme or reason to anything in the pocketknife world,
Treefarmer

That statement pretty much sums it up!

[flynbulldog]

This site, https://iknifecollector.com/group/queen ... rn-numbers, shows what I would call the "old numbers" and a "new numbers" lists. The new numbers list is also tagged, "Current Pattern Numbers for Daniels era Queens". Some of the numbers match, some are totally different from era to era.
Treefarmer

Thanks, I think that will help with at least some of my questions

[Mumbleypeg]

I would suspect that the numbering systems used by many companies are strictly for internal company record keeping if they ever kept any that is. As knife collectors we all know that the abscense of of written records is one of the things that confounds our search for answers in historical chronology of certain patterns or brands. One of the strangest developments in recent history to me is the use of item numbers by Case in addition to their standard identification patterns and handle material numbers. Go figure!

Greg, I agree on the surface it seems strange to assign a unique “item” number to a knife that already has a unique “pattern” number. But when you start offering 10 (pick a number) different colors of bone, you realize you can’t keep inventory records, much less sales, manufacturing, etc records. The world of Case became significantly more complicated when they started intentionally making and marketing different colors of the same natural material. Then different colors of synthetics, different SFO etches, and so on.

Used to be bone was bone, even if it may have different jigging patterns (or no jigging at all, aka smooth bone). All those knives having bone covers were given the designation “6” as the first digit in the pattern number. We collectors eventually, by observation, segregated those into Rogers bone, green bone, red bone, pretty bone, etc. but at the time they were made there were no collectors to worry over such differences. All had the simple “6” handle code because no one cared.

Then along came us collectors. Case began catering to the collector, first with Appaloosa bone (designated with the letter “A” affixed to the pattern number), smooth rose bone (SR), and so on until they finally had so many different colors they had to resort to use of the item numbers (which already existed BTW) to keep track of it all. Only then did most collectors begin paying attention to the item numbers. Unfortunately I know of no comprehensive list of all item numbers. Knifedb.com lists many but not all of them.

Ken

[Rookie]

Mainly I would like to learn about the Queen and Schatt & Morgan knives made in Titusville because that is mostly what I'm collecting.
I do use the Queen history website quite a bit and it has been helpful but it doesnt have a codex for the modern stuff

These links cover Queen pattern numbers/names for 1945-2012
https://queencutleryguide.com/wp-conten ... 5-2012.pdf

And from 2012-2018
https://queencutleryguide.com//wp-conte ... umbers.pdf

[flynbulldog]

Mainly I would like to learn about the Queen and Schatt & Morgan knives made in Titusville because that is mostly what I'm collecting.
I do use the Queen history website quite a bit and it has been helpful but it doesnt have a codex for the modern stuff

These links cover Queen pattern numbers/names for 1945-2012
https://queencutleryguide.com/wp-conten ... 5-2012.pdf

And from 2012-2018
https://queencutleryguide.com//wp-conte ... umbers.pdf

Wow that is super helpful! Thanks very much Carl. I saved both of those pdf's in my collection folder.

I don't know about you guys but I log every one of my knives into file with a full description, some history if I can find it, pictures from every angle, and my impressions and thoughts about the knife. Rather than just adding it to the collection I find it helps me get a sense for the knife, and gets me closer to it and get a chance to really contemplate and spend some time with it while still keeping it new and unused (and preserving the value)

So I really like getting the full story and some history and background.