More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

In 1911, H. N. Platts, was able to draw on his extensive friendships and family connections in the cutlery world to start Western States Cutlery and Manufacturing of Boulder Colorado. At first only a jobbing business, by 1920 construction and machinery purchases were underway to begin manufacture of knives. Through name changes--to Western States Cutlery Co. in 1953, then Western Cutlery Co. in 1956--and moves first across town and later to Longmont Colorado, the company stayed under the leadership of the Platt family until 1984. In that year, the company was sold to Coleman, becoming Coleman-Western. Eventually purchased by Camillus in 1991, Western continued until Camillus expired in 2007.
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zzyzzogeton
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More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Here's a Black Beauty combo knife set that recently sold for $115 of fleabay. Disclaimer - I did NOT buy this set. Too many issues from a "collector" view point and I got tons of users. I tend to use "BB" for "Black Beauty".

12471

And here's a picture of the set dismounted -

12470


In and of itself, that's a pretty good deal for a 1950 No. 84 Combination sheath and a pair of used BBs. The combo sheath by itself is "rare" enough to justify a look, despite the discoloration damage.

I have problems with the way this combo set was marketed - the auction title reads

Vintage Western "Black Beauty" F48A & F48B Knives with Leather Sheath- Rare set!

So what're the problems?? After all, the knives are BB F48A and F48B knives, the sheath is leather and all 3 were made by Western.

First off, the set is so rare that this is probably the ONLY set like this in the world. It is a frankenset - meaning that the parts of this set were combined to create a matchup that was never a factory offering.

The sheath is a 1950 No. 84 Combination sheath. From the factory, these were sold with a pair of bird & trout knives - an 48CAP and 48BBG with orange, red or ivory plastic handles. The 1950 catalog shows a RH sheath, but obviously, they were also available as LH sheaths as well. Later combination sheaths had the traditional Western oak leaf/acorn pattern stamped on them.

The second issue is knives with stamps used from 1955 to 1967 being mated with a sheath made in 1950 and NEVER mated with a BB knife in the company's history. BBs were not introduced until 1956 and from the gitgo had black sheaths.

Here're pics of the two ricasso stamps -

12468

12469

The last issue is a generic BB/sheath issue. BBs were only marketed and sold with BLACK dyed sheaths. BBs were never sold with tan/neutral/brown/rawhide sheaths. Any such marriage is a frankenset.

A final note on this sheath in particular - the original keeper straps have pulled free (originally bradded near the knobs) and replaced with a single pair of slots through both layers of leather that are misaligned and hence unuseable for either knife of the combo.

Enough on this soap box.
doglegg
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Re: More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

Post by doglegg »

Thanks for the tutorial
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herbva
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Re: More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

Post by herbva »

ZZ, thanks for the BB history lesson. Very informative! I seriously doubt that many, if any, of the less knowledgeable bidders would have picked up on all of the finer points/issues that you pointed out. ::teary_eyes::
"Better to do something imperfectly, than to do nothing flawlessly." ~ Robert H. Schuller

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Mumbleypeg
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Re: More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Whether the seller knew better or not is bedside the point. He either got bad info somewhere, or concocted the story to hype its sale. The problem is that’s how bad information gets propagated by/on the internet, and some future researcher will be misled, repeat it, and so on. Eventually it may become “fact” when it’s actually B.S.

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zzyzzogeton
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Re: More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Mumbleypeg wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:10 pm Whether the seller knew better or not is bedside the point. He either got bad info somewhere, or concocted the story to hype its sale. The problem is that’s how bad information gets propagated by/on the internet, and some future researcher will be misled, repeat it, and so on. Eventually it may become “fact” when it’s actually B.S.

Ken
Ken, That's why I post so wordily about what I think is wrong with a description and why when I make a "declaration" about what I think a particular knife i. I try to include my reasoning to edumacate the unedumacated.
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Mumbleypeg wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:10 pm Whether the seller knew better or not is bedside the point. He either got bad info somewhere, or concocted the story to hype its sale. The problem is that’s how bad information gets propagated by/on the internet, and some future researcher will be misled, repeat it, and so on. Eventually it may become “fact” when it’s actually B.S.

Ken
Ken, That's why I post so wordily about what I think is wrong with a description and why when I make a "declaration" about what I think a particular knife i. I try to include my reasoning to edumacate the unedumacated.
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1967redrider
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Re: More Western Knife Seller Shennanigans

Post by 1967redrider »

Great info, zzy. 😉👍👍
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