Research not making sense

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Rtustin
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Research not making sense

Post by Rtustin » Tue May 17, 2022 5:56 am

I have a knife that doesn't seem to add up. It is stamped R4283 and a little searching tells me it is a "sowbelly". However the shield I see in the pictures has a different shield than the acorn like I have. My father was a collector and I inherited his collection 20 years ago. I remember him telling me it was a rare knife. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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OSCAR
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by OSCAR » Tue May 17, 2022 12:31 pm

It seems you have an extremely rare knife indeed.
This is the Holy Grail of Remington knives. Five bladed sowbelly If you do search for Remington R4283, they are sought by collectors and depending on condition, they sell for about $2,000. Hope this helps. ::groove::
"The Edge...There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.

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1967redrider
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by 1967redrider » Tue May 17, 2022 12:34 pm

No punch blade, I'm afraid someone may have made this who's not named Remington.

"Not all punch bladed folders have an acorn shield (Scouts, for example), but all acorn shielded folders have a punch blade."
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by OSCAR » Tue May 17, 2022 12:46 pm

1967redrider wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 12:34 pm
No punch blade, I'm afraid someone may have made this who's not named Remington.

"Not all punch bladed folders have an acorn shield (Scouts, for example), but all acorn shielded folders have a punch blade."
I wasn’t aware of acorn shields all having punch blades. Then again, I’m not the greatest expert.
I thought it would be a Remington but given the going prices on R2483, it may be a counterfeit ? Or they made different versions with different shields. A search turned up this and others like it.
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Ridgegrass
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Ridgegrass » Tue May 17, 2022 12:55 pm

Levine shows that same pattern on p. 262 of his 3rd. Edition. Could it be mis-shielded or rebuilt ?Factory mistake? It looks pretty good, but the acorn should have a punch. ::shrug:: J.O'
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Rtustin
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Rtustin » Tue May 17, 2022 1:01 pm

It is definitely a Remington. All blades are stamped, and the main blade has Remington etched on it. Again, the concern I have is the knives I see listed as the same stamped knife have a different badge. I can’t imagine it is any sort of counterfeit, I have personally known of it’s existence for 40 years. And yes, I have read that all acorn badge knives have a punch blade which this one clearly does not. I am wondering if in it’s history the handle with the badge could have been replaced? Is there a sowbelly knife that had the acorn badge that would fit this knife exactly?

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1967redrider
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by 1967redrider » Tue May 17, 2022 1:09 pm

What's that 5 blade with the punch and acorn shield right above the Sowbelly in J.O.'s picture? The page is distorted.
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Paladin » Tue May 17, 2022 1:51 pm

I believe this one might be worth the trouble and expense to send it to Levine for evaluation. :shock:

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by OSCAR » Tue May 17, 2022 1:53 pm

Rtustin wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 1:01 pm
It is definitely a Remington. All blades are stamped, and the main blade has Remington etched on it. Again, the concern I have is the knives I see listed as the same stamped knife have a different badge. I can’t imagine it is any sort of counterfeit, I have personally known of it’s existence for 40 years. And yes, I have read that all acorn badge knives have a punch blade which this one clearly does not. I am wondering if in it’s history the handle with the badge could have been replaced? Is there a sowbelly knife that had the acorn badge that would fit this knife exactly?
That’s entirely possible. The model number you have does show a different shield on all the pictures I’ve seen, but they may have changed it. Whatever the reason for this shield, I’m pretty sure you have a very valuable knife.
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by FRJ » Tue May 17, 2022 2:01 pm

1967redrider wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 1:09 pm
What's that 5 blade with the punch and acorn shield right above the Sowbelly in J.O.'s picture? The page is distorted.
There is a designation for it in the text just below the two 5 blade knives.
Square end, $1,000 -- Humpback, $1500.
Joe

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Mumbleypeg » Tue May 17, 2022 2:32 pm

FRJ wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 2:01 pm
1967redrider wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 1:09 pm
What's that 5 blade with the punch and acorn shield right above the Sowbelly in J.O.'s picture? The page is distorted.
There is a designation for it in the text just below the two 5 blade knives.
Square end, $1,000 -- Humpback, $1500.
Note the square end knife has an acorn shield and a punch, as it should have.

I’m no expert, especially on Remingtons. I will say just because it’s been in a collection over 40 years means nothing. People were collecting Remington pocket knives 50 years ago (I knew some). And people were making fakes 50 years ago (I bought some ::facepalm:: ). Not saying the knife is fake, just that it having been in a collection that long doesn’t absolve it. I agree sending it to Levine for verification (or not) is a good way to find out. If he verifies it you’ll have documentation. JMO

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1967redrider
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by 1967redrider » Tue May 17, 2022 3:31 pm

FRJ wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 2:01 pm
1967redrider wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 1:09 pm
What's that 5 blade with the punch and acorn shield right above the Sowbelly in J.O.'s picture? The page is distorted.
There is a designation for it in the text just below the two 5 blade knives.
Square end, $1,000 -- Humpback, $1500.

I saw that but was wondering what the pattern might happen to be? ::shrug::
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!

You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by stockman » Tue May 17, 2022 4:17 pm

There are several topknotch Remington collectors on AAPK. Hopefully they will see your post. Harold

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by btrwtr » Tue May 17, 2022 4:21 pm

Strange knife. The bone is pretty light in color for most Reminton knives. All the Remington sowbelly knives that do not have punch blades have the funny looking hourglass type shield as seen in the catalog cut that Ridge showed. Of all the parts needed to effectively cobble up such a knife the real and original shield night be the hardest to find. Given that putting a acorn shield on a punch blade knife should have been a very basic and understood manufacturing proceedure for Remington workers I find it hard to believe the knife left the factory with an acorn shield. Better pictures, especially a detailed pic of the pattern number stamp would help.
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Rtustin
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Rtustin » Tue May 17, 2022 4:30 pm

The more I look at it the more I think the badge side of the handle has been replaced at some point. The handle color does not exactly match from one side to the other. The rivets that hold it on don’t seem to be as neatly applied either. So maybe the questions are:
1. Is there an exact matched handle that could be swapped?
2. How does this potentially effect the value of what otherwise seems to be a fairly valuable knife?
I don’t necessarily want to sell the knife but one always wants to know the value of what you have.

Thanks all for your info and comments.

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btrwtr
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by btrwtr » Tue May 17, 2022 4:33 pm

Yes, there is a punch blade handle that would match. Hard to determine if the knife is in any way authentic without better pictures. Pictures of the pattern stamp would help.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

Wayne

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Ridgegrass » Tue May 17, 2022 6:09 pm

The knife above the one in my post has a less pronounced "belly",just a little more pronounced than a stockman, and is square-bolstered and doesn't appear to have any interchangeable parts with the OP. Different color bone can be due to fading when lying one side to the light for a long time. I'd compare the jigging carefully on either side. IMHO your knife leans more toward authentic, but again, ::shrug:: I agree more and clearer pics could help.
Good luck with it. I'm betting a lot of us are just a tad envious. :D J.O'.

Rtustin
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Rtustin » Tue May 17, 2022 6:16 pm

I will take some better photos when I get home tonight.

Thanks.

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by btrwtr » Tue May 17, 2022 9:59 pm

Here is another catalog cut.
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IMG_4628.JPG
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

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Rtustin
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Rtustin » Wed May 18, 2022 12:51 am

Here are some hopefully better pictures.
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by kootenay joe » Wed May 18, 2022 1:32 am

On the front handle at the 2 blade end it looks like there are 2 handle pins touching each other. Picture artifact ?
kj

Rtustin
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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Rtustin » Wed May 18, 2022 1:43 am

Your eyes are not deceiving you. There are two. One larger than the other. The smaller of the two has an indent on the bone around it like a mis-strike when it went in. On that side as well the middle one is a bit misshapen as well. Doesn’t have a great fit. The last one on that side appears as it should.

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by stockman » Wed May 18, 2022 1:54 am

That mark side handle does look a little funny. Harold

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by Ridgegrass » Wed May 18, 2022 11:53 am

One thing's for sure, that old knife is getting more scrutiny than the Mona Lisa ! Gotta love AAPK! ::tu:: :D J.O'.

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Re: Research not making sense

Post by btrwtr » Wed May 18, 2022 7:43 pm

Other than the handles looking a bit less than typical Remington and the noted incorrect shield I can't see much wrong with knife. The handle center pins look like they were spun too deep on both sides. The front left handle pin looks like one single pin that has had part of the head spun off and almost separated from the pin. Hard to really say any more without seeing it first hand. Could the knife have had a different set of handles installed at some time??????
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

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