Pre 1911 Scout Knife???

[chevycannontexasjack]

I purchased a New York Knife Co scout knife today that also carries the Hammer Brand Logo on the main blade! It has a long pull and a nail nick on the main blade along with a pat no 701-878 on the punch which is dated to 1902! I know that there was not any Actual boy scout knives until 1911! I'm curious to know if this pre 1911?

[Ridgegrass]

CHEVY-------:Beautiful knife! Great shield, saber grind! The patent is for a Harrison punch only, not the knife. It's one of the "patent" punches NYK had them. Patent dates aren't good for dating, only to the point of establishing the earliest possible date of manufacture. I'm jealous . If you ever want to trade it for something you'd rather have, I'm in. Great find ! J.O'.

[Gunsil]

Very nice NYK knife, but it is not an official BSA knife. The NYK knives made for the BSA all had a BSA shield on them, yours is a generic utility/camp knife. NYK also made a similar version with "ARMY KNIFE" on the shield.

[chevycannontexasjack]

Check out scoutknives.net! There is a list of boyscout knives and unofficial scout knives! This knife was an official scout knife I'm assuming that would have be prepared etched into the shield just as the rest of the official scout knives made by NYK! But instead the buyer had his initials etched into the shield!

[1967redrider]

I love that Sabre ground blade, thanks for posting.

[ea42]

Here's a link to a page with the same knife in its "Army Knife" form that Gene mentioned:

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums ... eer-knife/

Lots of conjecture there from some folks who are doing a lot of guessing but the pics are good.

Eric

[chevycannontexasjack]

Dang that is the same knife! Thank you

[Gunsil]

The NYK "Army Knife" is larger than the NYK BSA models. Army Knife was just a model name or sales gimmick, no US army troops were issued pocket knives until WW2. The signal corps had some issued knives during WW1 but general infantry didn't get the four blade scout/utility knives until the second world war.

[kootenay joe]

In opening post 'chevy' asks: " I'm curious to know if this pre 1911?"
Is there any way to date this knife other than no earlier than 1902 ?
kj

[Mumbleypeg]

I don’t know how to date it but if it’s “pre-1911” it’s not a BSA knife.

Ken

[kootenay joe]

I don’t know how to date it but if it’s “pre-1911” it’s not a BSA knife.

Ken

Chevy says in his OP that he knows it is not a BSA knife. He is using "Scout knife" to mean 4 blade Utility, not BSA.
LG4 pg 274 says the 4 blade Utility was first made in USA "around 1900". Then in 1911 NYKCo. made the first official BSA 4 blade Utility knife.
Hence is OP knife one of the 4 blade Utility knives made before 1911 ?

[Mumbleypeg]

Roland I’m sorry but he did say it’s an official scout knife. At least that’s how I read this post he made which seems to contradict his first post.

“Check out scoutknives.net! There is a list of boyscout knives and unofficial scout knives! This knife was an official scout knife I'm assuming that would have be prepared etched into the shield just as the rest of the official scout knives made by NYK! But instead the buyer had his initials etched into the shield!”

All I’m saying is, it can’t both be “pre-1911” and an official scout knife. I’m doubtful it is an official BSA knife, but I’m not well acquainted with NYK so I’m not going to say definitively it’s not. What I do believe based on both Kerr’s and Holbrook’s books on the subject, and other sources, is that official BSA knives began in 1911/1912 with the BSA authorizing a NYK pattern previously known as a camper/utility knife to be the official BSA “Scout” knife.

Ken

[chevycannontexasjack]

I'm thinking after some research it is no later than 1922!

[ea42]

Roland I’m sorry but he did say it’s an official scout knife. At least that’s how I read this post he made which seems to contradict his first post.

“Check out scoutknives.net! There is a list of boyscout knives and unofficial scout knives! This knife was an official scout knife I'm assuming that would have be prepared etched into the shield just as the rest of the official scout knives made by NYK! But instead the buyer had his initials etched into the shield!”

All I’m saying is, it can’t both be “pre-1911” and an official scout knife. I’m doubtful it is an official BSA knife, but I’m not well acquainted with NYK so I’m not going to say definitively it’s not. What I do believe based on both Kerr’s and Holbrook’s books on the subject, and other sources, is that official BSA knives began in 1911/1912 with the BSA authorizing a NYK pattern previously known as a camper/utility knife to be the official BSA “Scout” knife.

Ken

The OP knife is definitely not an Official Scout Knife. The first NYK Official Scout Knives were 3 5/8" long with a banner shield that had "BE PREPARED" stamped into it. After 1922 the shield became the well known oval shield with the official scout emblem stamped into it. None of them had saber ground spears or the fancy pictured shield. The pictured knife is a utility knife.

Eric

[kootenay joe]

Chevy's wording then is not clear because i read it as him saying that his knife is not an official BSA but could it be from a time before the BSA knives started ? (1911/12).
Whether or not that is what he meant, i would like to know if this knife is a really early 4 blade Utility, one that NYKCo made before they began making knives for the BSA.
I have not been saying or under the impression, that the OP knife is a BSA knife. The confusion can arise because many people use the words "scout knife" to mean any 4 blade Utility knife whereas to others "Scout knife" is reserved for 4 blade Utility pattern authorized by the Boy Scouts of America.
So, how old is OP knife ?
kj

[chevycannontexasjack]

Thanks yes I have realized that this knife is not a boy scout knife at all! But I am curious about how old it is, I'm wondering if the knife was made pre boysout era! My first post on the knife I was under the impression it was a SCOUT KNIFE but now I know what type of knife it is I was curious to know a rough estimate on date! And I think anywhere from 1905-1922 but only an old catalog book or someone with alot of knowledge with the hammer brand/NYK knives! I'm a case guy so I don't claim to know much about any other knives but I sure do appreciate the fine quality of these older hand crafted knives! Gotta love the handles on this baby!

John

[kootenay joe]

Quote chevy: "My first post on the knife I was under the impression it was a SCOUT KNIFE".
Well there ya go. I read it to mean the opposite.
kj

[ScoutKnives]

I believe they started using that style punch blade in 1917 , so I would date that knife with those style blades from 1917-22 .
The punch blades used from 1911-16 had a date of 6-10-02 on them .

Mike

[kootenay joe]

I believe they started using that style punch blade in 1917 , so I would date that knife with those style blades from 1917-22 .
The punch blades used from 1911-16 had a date of 6-10-02 on them .

Mike

So even though the punch patent was registered in 1902 it did not get put into knives until about 1911 ?
kj

[ScoutKnives]

Yes just like the first version punch was dated 6-10-02 and didn’t get used until 1911 .
If I get a chance I’ll post pictures of the first version punch .
Mike

I believe they started using that style punch blade in 1917 , so I would date that knife with those style blades from 1917-22 .
The punch blades used from 1911-16 had a date of 6-10-02 on them .

Mike

So even though the punch patent was registered in 1902 it did not get put into knives until about 1911 ?
kj

[kootenay joe]

Yes just like the first version punch was dated 6-10-02 and didn’t get used until 1911 .
If I get a chance I’ll post pictures of the first version punch .
Mike

I believe they started using that style punch blade in 1917 , so I would date that knife with those style blades from 1917-22 .
The punch blades used from 1911-16 had a date of 6-10-02 on them .

Mike

So even though the punch patent was registered in 1902 it did not get put into knives until about 1911 ?
kj

O.K., Thanks.
Levine says that the first USA 4 blade Utility knives were made "around 1900". Does anyone have an example of these very early USA 4 blade Utility knives ? Would be most helpful to see a picture of one of these knives.
kj

[chevycannontexasjack]

That would be great to see one! Just think around 100 some odd years ago they were making way better stuff than they are today and we have the capabilities of making anything today with the best of materials..

[ScoutKnives]

As far as I know the first know utility knife was made by NYK in 1911 . I will dig them out and take a few pictures .

Mike

[Mumbleypeg]

Per the article published in Levine’s (authored by Dennis Ellingsen) the utility pattern was introduced around 1900. The Boy Scouts of America was founded in 1910. Thus a utility pattern knife which predates the BSA founding would be limited to about a 10 year time window, 1900-1910. To ensure it is from that time window would be very difficult unless one had a utility knife that came from a company that went out of business pre-1910.

I have this example from Miller Bros, which went out of business in 1926. The presence of the Prest-o-lite wrench narrows it to some time between 1904 when Prest-o-lite came into being, and 1926. That’s as close to dating it as I’ve been able to define. The primitive Prest-o-lite wrench and lack of any “scout” related stamping, which became commonplace even on many non-official versions soon after 1911, may indicate it’s the early part of that period.

Ken

[Ripster]

Beautiful Miller Bro’s piece of Cutlery there Mumblypeg
Been a interesting read here fellas . Thanks to all here for a little history lesson
In my opinion this old Cutlery is some of the best .
Take care .