Whitetail Antler Scales for a GAK

[Myron]

Hello everyone. This is my first real post on AAPK other than my intro thread over on the New Members forum.

One reason I was excited to join AAPK was to tap into the knowledge base of the more experienced makers and modders out there. I have a project in mind and I'm hoping to get a few tips.

My project is to replace the nylon scales on a 1970's-80's German Army Knife (GAK) made by Victorinox with a pair I'm making myself from whitetail deer antler. The antler was given to me by a friend, and he shot the deer in 1985 so the antlers are already 35 years old. I've cut the scales out and will soon drill and mount them to the donor GAK.

My observations so far: This material is easily worked but very smelly. It's deceptively difficult to find a usable piece of antler from a whitetail deer since the antlers are so curvy. So far I've used only a band saw and a belt sander. I expect to use only a drill press, anvil, and ball peen hammer to finish the project.

Here are my questions:

Would you treat the antler scales with anything before mounting them on the knife? I have zero experience with this and am just wondering if they need to be coated with anything to protect or stabilize them. My material seems quite hard and as I mentioned it's already 35 years old.

Would you use little dabs of epoxy to fill in small irregularities where the edge of the antler scale doesn't quite meet the edge of the knife's liner? If so, what product would you recommend? How about matching the color of the epoxy to the antler?

Sorry, I tried to load images of my project so far but got an error message about my hosted image code not working. I usually just copy the BBS code from Imgur and it works fine. What am I doing wrong? I checked the FAQ's here and it seems like this should work.

Edit: Success! I think I figured out how to attach pictures. Here are the antler scales (so far):

And here is the donor GAK:

Thanks for any tips or advice you may have to offer!

Myron

[kootenay joe]

Welcome to AAPK. The only requirement for membership is a love of knives !
I cannot help with answers to your questions. But i can suggest that you cut the stag into as thin a piece as possible. If the stag is a bit thick and being on both sides, it will make the knife look like a block and it will not fit the hand well. Hopefully one of the experienced cutlers here will post suggestions on how thick (or thin) is optimal.
Did the smell you mention happen only when you were sawing or sanding the antler ? If so it is just the smell of bits of antler (or bone) getting hot or even burning. The cut slabs should not be smelly.
kj

[Meridian_Mike]

Hello Myron..... Welcome to the best knife site on the WWW.....
.
If I were to give out some advice I would say....
If there are no bolsters then just mock up your knife and you should be able to tell if there will be excessive thickness.
(Usually the bolsters will show you how thick new covers should be.
Since the deer antler is not stabilized, the canals (hollow tubes) in the bone will suck up oil and change the look unless you seal the surface.
(ask me how I know that,,,,,LOL)
Thin and dried out bone is easy to crack when you are peening the pins. This is ANOTHER issue I am still working on. I crack those jokers TOO many times.
.
NOW, I am still learning so I just wanted to throw out a few things that plagues me. I have used deer antler a good bit, and I still struggle with making it look like I want it to.
.
Just give it a try on a dead knife or 2 first and see how you do. It's not as easy as Dale and others here can make it look.....LOL.

Good luck!
Take pics, post 'em and ask questions!

[just bob]

I was watching a tv show last night and they showed inspection officials at ports inspecting imports. They opened a wooden crate that contained trophy game with horns and antlers. They made the point that parasites could live on for extended periods in the horns / antlers unless they had been treated. To gain entry into the USA these types of items must have certificates of non infectious by a taxidermist or veterinarian. Maybe Roland would know what the procedure is if you kill a deer in Canada and want to bring it back into the USA? Also the pelts can contain fleas / ticks / and other organisms and must be treated as well. It has been discussed in the forum that you can use Minwax Wood Hardener to stabilize small quantities of bone and stag. I have tried that on bone and at least to the naked eye didn't look to change the surface of the bone at all.

[just bob]

Rendering Animal Products Non-infectious
A veterinary or taxidermy certificate should be included with the trophy, stating that the animal has been rendered noninfectious by―
Heat (heated to an internal temperature of 70 degrees Celsius (158 degrees Fahrenheit) or placed in boiling water for a minimum of 30 minutes)
Preservation in formalin
Chemically treating in acidic or alkaline solutions (soaking in a solution below pH 3.0 or above pH 11.5 for 24 hours)
The use of hypertonic salts
Soaking, with agitation, in a 4%(w/v) solution of washing soda (sodium carbonate, Na2CO3) maintained at pH 11.5 or above for at least 48 hours
Soaking, with agitation, in a formic acid solution (100kg salt [NaCl] and 12 kg formic acid per 1,000 liters water) maintained at below pH 3.0 for at least 48 hours; wetting and dressing agents may be added.
Gamma irradiation at a dose of at least 20 kilo Gray at room temperature (20°C or higher)
Ethylene oxide
In the case of raw hides, salting for at least 28 days with sea salt containing 2% washing soda (sodium carbonate, Na2CO3)
For bones only, the following methods are acceptable
Dry heat at 82.2° C (180°F) for 30 minutes
Soaking in boiling water for 20 minutes
Soaking in a 0.1 percent chlorine bleach solution for 2 hours
Soaking in a 5 percent acetic acid solution for 2 hours OR
Soaking in a 5 percent hydrogen peroxide solution for 2 hours
Or, any other method approved by CDC

[Bill DeShivs]

Stag is not bone.
Stag has been used, unstabilized, for hundreds of years as knife handles. It really needs no protection.
Your stag handles should be cut large enough that there are no irregularities where it meets the liners. Any epoxy used should not be visible.

[Meridian_Mike]

Stag is not bone.
Stag has been used, unstabilized, for hundreds of years as knife handles. It really needs no protection.
You stag handles should be cut large enough that there are no irregularities where it meets the liners. Any epoxy used should not be visible.

NOPE.... he can't cut the DEER antler any larger than it already is.....
Fitting deer to a knife is really hard because it is a small set of antlers and they take so many twists and turns. Finding a good flat spot in a deer antler is a hard thing to do.

Myron, I see what you are saying about adding epoxy. It WOULD look better if you hide the liners so I think that is what Bill was trying to say. IF you are afforded the luxury of a larger piece of antler then make it larger so you can file it down to the size of the liner. That way you will get a better fit.

[Meridian_Mike]

OH.... one other thing Myron.
Just epoxy alone is not a good way to attach covers to a knife liner. You really need to pin them on also.
That means you will have to take the knife apart and attach the covers before you put it back together OR... You can use a cutlers "stiddy" and pin them while the knife is together....

Like thus....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s43vAbvSSGQ

Discouraged yet?....LOL


(get on in there and give it a GO!!)

[ea42]

I'd suggest watching this to see the construction of those knives before you knock yours apart. Make sure you can re-assemble it. Skeleton construction that incorporates plastic handles is a bit different from regular slipjoint construction. Myron does yours look similar with the handles off?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXNTM2A8nCY

As Bill DeShivs (that's such a cool moniker!) said you don't have to treat the antler/stag at all. I've done many hundreds of them au natural without a problem. Just don't expose a whole lot of the soft interior pith on the upward facing part.

Eric

[Myron]

This is great, thanks guys.

Yes, I have taken apart and put back together numerous SAKs, so I know how they go together. My plan was to drill the stag scales from the outside and replace the swivels with new pin stock, then peen flush with the outside of the stag scales. Victorinox made a very small number of this 108 mm knife with stag scales in the 1970's and they are hard to find today, and valuable when you do find them.

I'll do a bunch of test-fitting before I commit to make sure it's not an ugly mis-match and/or too much liner is showing. My donor GAK was only 26 bucks and the antlers were a gift, so I don't have much wrapped up into it.

Having never worked with the material, I did not know how stable it was, so I'm glad to hear that I don't have to do anything else to it.

I'll return to the thread when the knife is done to show my results.

Thanks again!

Myron

[kootenay joe]

Myron, i am looking forward to seeing this knife with the new stag handles.
kj

[edge213]

Stag is not bone.
Stag has been used, unstabilized, for hundreds of years as knife handles. It really needs no protection.
Your stag handles should be cut large enough that there are no irregularities where it meets the liners. Any epoxy used should not be visible.

It's my understanding that deer antler stag is bone, horn is basically hair.

[Bill DeShivs]

Then look it up. Stag antlers are not bone.

[edge213]

Then look it up. Stag antlers are not bone.

First of all I did not and do not intend this to be any kind of an argument. I do not claim to be any kind of an expert.
I simply said it was my "understanding".
Now, having said that, I did follow your "advice" and looked it up.
Of course the first information to pop up is Wikipedia. Not sure as to its accuracy, but here it is. (I will continue to study this subject for my own knowledge).

Wikipedia:
Antlers are an extension of a animals skull found in members of the deer family. Antlers are true BONE and are a single structure.
Also:
Growth occurs at the tip and is initially cartilidge which is later replaced by BONE tissue. Once the antler has achieved it full size , the velvet is lost and the antler BONE dies. This dead BONE structure is the mature antler. In most cases the BONE at the base is destroyed by osteoclasts and the antlers fall off.

[Bill DeShivs]

You are correct, and I'm wrong.
Thank you for the learning experience.

[eveled]

Stag is a male deer. But usually when talking knife handles Stag refers to Sambar Stag. Which is a specific species of deer known to have very dense antlers with almost no soft pith inside.

So to call antler from a white tail deer Stag is somewhat incorrect.

When I shot my deer I wanted a European mount. Essentially just the skull and antlers. I got as much flesh off as I could then buried it in the garden for almost a year. When I dug it up I used a garden hose to clean it up . The antlers began to bleed red fresh looking blood. It was the freakiest thing to see. Add water to an empty skull and blood would flow out of the antlers and it took a long time to flush it all out.


OP. First off welcome to the forum. I very much look forward to seeing the finished knife. I don’t know why epoxy won’t work alone. Lots of knives have epoxied handles with no pins. Rough up and degrease the surfaces and epoxy them on.

[Myron]

Thank you, eveled. I never knew this about antler as a material, so it's good to be informed.

In truth I've never been particularly attracted to stag-handled knives. I was just thinking one day about the factory-made issue of this particular knife with stag scales and had the thought that if I could make a pair of my own from a species of deer native to my own state (and harvested in my own county, actually) that it would be kind of cool.

The more I looked at pictures of classic knives with stag scales the more I started to appreciate the art, so I just mentioned it to a friend who hunts and he said, "I have a box full of them and will bring you a pair." It was actually this project, and these questions, that brought me to AAPK so I guess that's one good thing to come of it.

My donor GAK should be here any day. Hopefully I'll get a chance to finish the project up soon.

Myron

[Myron]

All done, and it turned out ok. I'm pleased with it anyway.

This material is simultaneously fun and frustrating to work with. It's fun because it's so easy to drill, cut, shape, etc, but it's frustrating because it presents no regular surfaces. You can see I had a hard time shaping the heads on my brass pins on the outside. But I was really just wanting a wine opener to live in the kitchen drawer, and not looking to win any art prizes.

Thanks again for the tips and advice, everyone.

Myron

[Doc B]

Great job, with a difficult-to-work-with material!!! Go enjoy some wine!!!

[Reverand]

That looks a lot better than I expected!
I don't mean that to disparage you or your skills, but usually antler looks best on a knife with bolsters. But you made that look good!

[Myron]

Thank you, Reverand and Doc B. I might try it again some day, but I'd want to use a different material, say maybe bone.

You know, I never thought about seeing antler with bolsters, but you're absolutely right. I guess because I'm an old SAK guy it never occurred to me.

It was a fun way to spend the day, and it's in the kitchen drawer now waiting for a wine-n-cheese event.

[doglegg]

Glad to see the finished project Myron, it really turned out good. You will enjoy using it more because of the time and work you have in it. Thanks for sharing.

[kootenay joe]

The Wiki info on antler is not correct: "Growth occurs at the tip and is initially cartilage which is later replaced by BONE tissue."
Antler growth occurs at the base, the 'bosses' which are the 2 bony bumps on the skull of male ungulates where antler growth takes place. Antler is "bony" in texture but is NOT bone. Bone is made up of cells that divide into new cells and create growth and bone has blood vessels throughout. Antler is made of minerals deposited by cells and has no interior blood supply.
There are many differences between bone and antler. They are not the same type of material. There is much more to it than the above statements.
kj

[glennbad]

Cool, I like it!

[Myron]

Thanks guys! I learned a lot from this project.