Metal Class ??

lenny357 · Post by **lenny357** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:26 am

Whats the difference in price quality etc. between these two types of blade materials.
VG-10 stainless and ATS34
Any help on this would be of great help?

Rustle47 · Post by **Rustle47** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:36 am

The A.G. Russel chart shows ATS-34 & VG-10 with about the same amount of carbon (hardness). The VG-10 contains Vanadium & Cobalt which the ATS-34 does not. I was told Vanadium makes the blade "tougher", as in edge retention. VG-10 has a little more chrome, so it would be more stain resistent. I have no idea what the cobalt does. Only 3 of the 36 steels listed contained cobalt. Hope that helps a little.

Duffy · Post by **Duffy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:35 am

Where's 1095 carbon at on the chart compared to these steels. I noticed that ATS34 and CM154 are listed the same in this chart. Same metal just different name?

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:16 am

Duffy wrote:Where's 1095 carbon at on the chart compared to these steels. I noticed that ATS34 and CM154 are listed the same in this chart. Same metal just different name?

Different manufacturer. ATS34 is made by Hitatchi, CM154 is made by Crucible. Really close enough to be treated the same.

1095 is not on there because those are all stainless steels. Cobalt does make steel tougher and maybe provides some lubricity as it can drill through case hardened steel when cobalt steel is used for bits.

Rustle47 · Post by **Rustle47** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:25 pm

Oh boy, am I confused! No, wait! Maybe I'm not!

VG-10 must have a slight edge (pun intended) on ATS-34.

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:44 pm

Rustle47 wrote:Oh boy, am I confused! No, wait! Maybe I'm not!
VG-10 must have a slight edge (pun intended) on ATS-34.

VG-10 is a unique formulation of steel with a high carbon content, and containing various amounts of one or more of the following: Chromium, Vanadium, Molybdenum and Cobalt. The steel is specially designed for high-quality blades used in kitchen cutlery, such as chef's knives, vegetable knives, cleavers, paring knives, carving knives and the like. VG-10 is often called "super steel," because it is designed to maintain sharpness and durability without becoming brittle, a major fault normally associated with exceptionally hard steel. This quality is ideal when extreme sharpness is desired, as most other steel will not take or keep an edge like VG-10. When this type of steel is used in a knife, it is normally encased in layers of steel providing greater corrosion-resistance, leaving only the "super steel" exposed at the edge for fine cutting.

VG10 C:1.0% Cr:15,0% Mo:1.0% V:0.2% Co:1.5%

V Gold 10 generally know as VG-10 or sometimes V-Kin-10 (kin stands for "gold" in japanese) is a quality cutlery grade stainless steel produced in Japan ("Gold" denotes high quality).

Almost VG 10 knives are made in Japan, possibly steel export retrictions.

ATS-34 and CM154 are solid and one is from Hitatchi (ATS-34 Japan) and one is from Crucible (CM154 America). Some think of these as super steel also.

ATS34 C:1.05% Cr:14.0% Mo:4.0% Mn:0.4%

154CM C:1.05% Cr:14.0% Mo:4.0% Mn:0.5%

The only difference is the Manganese 0.4 vs 0.5, essentially the same steel.

TM · Post by TM » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Very informative Hukk, thank you.

Are you familiar with a steel listed as HC0170-6C (I think that's what it's called) - if so, can you tell me about it?

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:43 pm

lenny357,

This is only my opinion, but I think A.G. Russell offers a very fine Steel Guide here.....

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_informat ... index.html

It helps in comparisons about the strengths and lesser qualities of the various compositions.

Bill

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:01 pm

TM wrote:Very informative Hukk, thank you.

Are you familiar with a steel listed as HC0170-6C (I think that's what it's called) - if so, can you tell me about it?

I googled it since I'm not familiar with it. I ended up with Mike Latham's website, CollectorKnives.Net looking at some Remington knives. It may be a proprietary steel.

Here is another informational link that explains some commonly used steels. I also saw no reference to it in my heat treaters guide.

http://www.engnath.com/public/manframe.htm

HC at the end usually means High Carbon. H at the beginning is usually H series, Hot Work Tool Steels. I guess it could be cross referenced to another country that uses that designation.

Got me on that one.

TM · Post by TM » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:21 pm

Hukk - thats funny you came up with Mikes site, because I think I just ordered a couple of those Remington's you were looking at

The delrin handles, right?

That's why I was curious about it - I had never seen it before either but I had a feeling the HC might stand for high carbon

Thanks for taking the time to try to figure it out!

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:08 pm

TM wrote:Hukk - thats funny you came up with Mikes site, because I think I just ordered a couple of those Remington's you were looking at The delrin handles, right?

That's why I was curious about it - I had never seen it before either but I had a feeling the HC might stand for high carbon

Thanks for taking the time to try to figure it out!

When I Googled it was the ONLY site to come up. I'll have to ask Mike OR cross reference a few variables. HC at the end is usually high carbon, but the first 2 letters - NO.

Pretty funny though!

Bryan is doing a good job, I find that many times I google something knife related and AAPK comes up high in the list. Good Job Bryan!

lenny357 · Post by **lenny357** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:14 pm

Thanks helps alot I picked up an older MOKI pocket knife MK-500A which is made from ATS34...I was trying to find / get a price check on it but it seems all MOKI knives are now made from VG-10 stainless and my model is to be found, now anywhere. I was wondering if the ATS34 is a better all around blade material than the VG-10.
Just a side note the quality of MOKI knives is top knotch and I'm looking at getting a few more.

Duffy · Post by **Duffy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:48 pm

Very well put Hukk, even a feller like me can understand some of the differences in the metals now. That's saying something for a man like me who only buys the news paper to look at the pictures on the cartoon page

But to be fair, I only buy Playboy to read the great storys

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:47 am

Here is another reprint of an article about steels by the late Bob Engnath.....

http://www.knifecountryusa.com/store/ar ... akers.html

Moki also uses another Japanese steel, AUS-6, in their "Pendant" knives. I believe they use and have used several different steels...all of reasonable quality and good heat treating.

Bill

P. S.
Ooooops...same as on Hukk's link if you click STEEL at the left.

lenny357 · Post by **lenny357** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:10 am

El Lobo great link good reading. My wife is Japanese and is getting me alot of info on these knives now. I would say the fit and finish is very close to a custom knife. The blades have an almost digital sound apon opening / locking and closing is also quick have to watch the fingers

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:32 am

Duffy wrote:Very well put Hukk, even a feller like me can understand some of the differences in the metals now. That's saying something for a man like me who only buys the news paper to look at the pictures on the cartoon page But to be fair, I only buy Playboy to read the great storys

Sorry to hear that,

I only read the pictures.

lenny357 · Post by **lenny357** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:23 pm

That was fast the customer service in Japan is something I miss I served there for 12 years, my wife got the following info from MOKI knife Co.
VG-10 is the replacement metel for ATS 34 due to the expense of working it. They sill use ATS34 for there higher end lines. My knife is a MOKI MK-500A (Stag lock back) no longer made and when it was very limited (according to MOKI Co.). He also said that to produce a knife which is Stag and ATS34 would be much more expensive now than there current line of Bone Stag handles/VG-10 blades. This man has been working there for 12 years and has never rembered this knife going out/shipped so it's either old or very limited. The company man is now curious about the knife and is asking more senior workers in the company for more information (more to come). I tried to take a good picture but well need to practice

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Metal Class ??

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