A Western States Doctor?

[MT-Vessel]

My first post.... I am a novice, small “c” collector. I’ve started looking for vintage pocket knives here on Vancouver Island. Recently, I found this little fellow.

The tang stamp is an arched WESTERN STATES, over BOULDER COLO., over MADE IN U.S.A. It is a doctors knife IMHO. Age?
The scales are brass. The covers are perhaps MOP. The blades are slightly worn spear/pen shaped. The closed length is 2 &15/16ths.
Any information about this knife would be appreciated. Thanks

[btrwtr]

Welcome to AAPK!

Very nice knife for your first post. Good brand, good pattern and MOP to boot!

[americanedgetech]

Hi MT,
Welcome to the forum!!!

I can help with the date, and my opinion on the handles. They do look like Mother of Pearl from my house BUT the slight waviness in the surface indicates Celluloid. You can use a sewing needle to try to press it into the material (in a hidden spot) or rub the surface till warm to see if you get a chemical (camphor) smell. The needle is easier.

I am a neophyte at this so I help with what I can without getting carried away.
Here is the tang stamp chart that I have for Western...

Edit: I looked again, and it does appear that you have a slight corrosion line along the top/mid portion of the smaller blade. That is a further indication of Celluloid, and a condition known as "Out Gassing".
Wait for more opinions.

[XX Case XX]

Hi MT Glad you found us. Not very knowledgeable on Western knives. I too would like to hear from the others on your knife. Whatever the date and handle material, that's a very nice knife. Thanks for sharing.

____________
Mike

[FRJ]

Welcome here, MT-Vessel.
What a fine old Mother of Pearl doctors knife you have.
A novice you say. You're using some proper knife nomenclature for a novice. And some decent pictures. Thanks.

Please don't use a needle on this knife or any other knife you have doubts about concerning the covers.
There are other less damaging ways to determine what the covers might be.

[espn77]

I agree with Joe, think about putting a hot needle into your old knife for one second before you do and you'll realize that it's a bad idea.

[btrwtr]

My experience with celluloid and flames tells me using a hot needle is very bad karma. I've never done it and at this point I doubt I ever will although it would not hurt the MOP handles.

[peanut740]

Excellent first post.No doubt mother of pearl and a fine little not often seen pattern.

[americanedgetech]

Never said "HOT" needle guys...
A needle will stick or dimple the surface instantly if the handle is Celluloid. If it is MOP it will do nothing but slide on the surface.
With a light touch you will never even see the spot you tested on Cell.

[zzyzzogeton]

Based on my best guestimate, that would be a model 17209, made between 1921 and 1931, most likely towards the end of that time frame. The 209 is NOT part of the 1931 or 1936 catalog reprints.

Reasoning - the 209 was a 2 spear point bladed "English Pattern" made during that time frame. The 3-3/4" version (Pattern number 270) was marketed as a "Physician's Knife", but the 209 did not have "physician" attached to it (based on the info I have available).

Quoting the catalog reprint description -

"16209 --- 2-7/8 In. Long --- Actual Size

16209 - ENGLISH PATTERN. Brass lining. Nickel silver bolsters. Two blades.

17209 - Same as above fitted with grey pearl pyraline handes.

18209 - Same as above cut. Fitted with Genuine Pearl Handles. Brass Lining. Nickel silver bolsters."


During this time, the 209 came in 3 flavors -16209, 17209 and 18209.

The leading 1 indicated double end bolsters. 6 = bone stag 7 = ivory or agate composition (e.g., celluloid) 8 = "genuine pearl".

The corrosion lines on the blades leads me to think the handles are celluloid', although the corrosion lines "MIGHT" have come from being stored in a drawer with other knives with celluloid handles. A test is needed to tell you which material your knife has.

My reasoning for stating that the knife was made during the later portion of the 1921 - 1931 time frame is based on the stamp having "MADE IN USA" under the "Boulder Colo". None of the few 1920 - 1931 knives I have seen had stamp line, but MOST of the 1931 and later knives have had the line.

This does not mean the stamp was never used on early 1920 - 1931 knives, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's not a pig.

[MT-Vessel]

A blanket “Thank you” to everyone for the warm welcome. Thanks too for the positive comments on aspects of my first post.
FYI, all of my knowledge re: pocket knife nomenclature is due to too much iPad time on AAPK and hanging with my all powerful friend, Google.
The Out Gassing evidence on the blade is valuable info. My wife beleives that the covers are MOP due it feeling cool on her lips and clicking when tapped against her teeth.... Apparently, this is a “sewing” button test. Either way it is an interesting find and did I mention that it cost $4 CDN...
Thanks again everyone

[americanedgetech]

The tooth test is actually sliding real pearl across your teeth. If it is real pearl there will be a gritty feeling, and imitation feels smooth. Even glass feels gritty on the tooth compared to plastics

I don't know if this equates to MOP or not but I sure would side with the Mrs.

[edge213]

From what I see in the pictures, that knife is MOP! Does not look like celluloid at all. In person real MOP and cell MOP is easy to tell apart.

[patch1]

MT-Vessel
Welcome aboard AAPK from an old Saltspring guy. Nice find, It is a real keeper.
Never found much around Parksville last trip out. You must have a better "honey hole".

Happy Hunting
Patch1

[tongueriver]

From what I see in the pictures, that knife is MOP! Does not look like celluloid at all. In person real MOP and cell MOP is easy to tell apart.

I think that it is MOP, as well (from 1000+ miles away ). And you can take whatever ZZ offers as information 'to the bank.' Very nice and rare early knife.

[jerryd6818]

Noting the profile of the secondary blade's tang, I think 'ZZ' nailed the age. I don't recall seeing any knife made after 1930 with a tang that shape (reference picture below)

And I'm going to come in on the side of Celluloid. Note the dull and rough handle surface in the picture below. That coupled with the rust line on the blades is telling me it's not pearl.

Sometimes it pays to get up close and personal. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Welcome to AAPK!

And nice knife.

There is a knife dealer on Whidby Island. Is that close to you?

Charlie Noyes

[MT-Vessel]

Thanks again everyone.
Re: Is Whidbey Island near me? In number of miles, it isn’t too far... but involves three ferries and a border crossing. A bit of a trek.
Here is a photo of the “other” side of the knife. It has an interesting little scar near the bottom bolster. Hmmm. 17209 or 18209 who knows? I like it just the same.

[peanut740]

That photo should quell any doubts that it is pearl.

[edge213]

This knife is definitely MOP.

[jerryd6818]

I give. It's pearl.

[btrwtr]

In my initial post I said it was MOP and there was no doubt in my mind. Very nice knife. I like pearl and Doctors knives as well. The pearl on this knife has aged well and survived without cracking, which is a tremendous plus in my eyes. I put this one in the HOK (honest old knife) category. Great find!