Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

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58chevy348
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Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby 58chevy348 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:56 pm

Just curious. Obviously, a factory second means something didn't pass final inspection on a knife, so the company either ground off the tang stamping or pitted it with a drill. In your opinion, how greatly does this affect the value of a knife? If the tang is still partly / mostly legible as in the examples below?
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby just bob » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:06 pm

I have been looking at some of these and wonder if they weren't marked that way to denote a counterfeit knife in some cases. That way the knife couldn't be bought/sold without a very close examination. I have seen counterfeit Morgan dollars that were marked with punches. I have also seen some counterstamp coins that were used as a type of token. Back before 1950 a knife was sold as a tool and cosmetic type blemishes wouldn't result in a knife being called a second. The knife would have had to have been almost inoperable to be considered a second and if that were the case I don't think the knife would have ever left the factory. Only my opinion. I'm interested in what others with more experience have to say on the subject. Good post!
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby peanut740 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:44 pm

If it's the same guy,he has several fakes listed on Ebay has factory seconds.All marked the same way.I emailed him,he did nothing. ::td::
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby americanedgetech » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:58 pm

Assuming the knife does not pass QC at the factory, why would they mark it, and release it? That makes no sense unless it is a way to remove it from warranty availability.
Still the question remains, why release it.

Counterfeit markers make no sense as well. Say the factory received a warranty knife that was a counterfeit... I can see them refusing service but either destroying or deforming another persons property would never fly in our country (USA).

So I will venture my own guess that these "factory marked" knives were meant for export ONLY. The factory receives a tax write off, and the knives are to be sold overseas.
What happens after that is anyones guess. The knives may never make it out of the US due to any number of reasons. My first assumption would be any person along the chain of custody wanting to make a fast buck on the underground market.

Just my personal theory... ::shrug::
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby just bob » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:12 pm

The knife wasn't marked at the factory as a counterfeit. It was marked by a conscience collector when he spotted the fact that it was fake and marked it so no one would get duped on it. It coud still used to be used to whittle with or cut baling twine so there was no point in destroying the knife. There are clear factory 2nd knives in the 1970's and after where the tang stamp has been ground off at the factory. These knives did not have a warranty and were clearly marked so they weren't mistaken for a first quality knife.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby espn77 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:49 pm

The Remington knives he had where not good.

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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby americanedgetech » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:56 pm

Not good as in fakes?

Just Bob... I'm still curious as to why a factory would grind the tang, and still release the knife into the main market.
Your explanation of the drilling aspect I accept as more likely

Do you believe export could have been a factor in the tang grinding or is that just day dreaming?
I can't see any manufacturer releasing anything they deem as sub par. If it has no warranty then why release it? Especially a knife...

I hope I am not confusing the thread but I think my questions fit.
Only used once comes to mind...
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby just bob » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:10 am

I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that Case sold factory 2nd knives in their gift shop to visitors of their facility? Can't remember where I read that, but feel certain it is true. The reason they did it is simple - to make money. Whay scrap a useful item? Here is the only modern example I can find.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-FACTORY-SE ... 7675.l2557
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby just bob » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:11 am

should be gift shop - sorry
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby edge213 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:13 am

Cold Steel sold seconds. GEC sold seconds as EDC. I'm sure others do as well.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby hardman » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:21 am

Interesting topic.

I am most familiar with Case knives. Here is what I have been told. Historically, Case did not sell factory seconds. If a knife failed QC, it was destroyed or scavenged for parts. In the very late 1980's and very early 1990's, Case became very cash strapped. So much so, they tried to turn everything into cash. That led to them selling factory seconds for a short time. They were identified as such by stamping one or more often two "X" on the tang very near the tang stamp. Or, they sometimes ground out the tang stamp. All were sold without warranty. The practice was dicontinued after an ownership change or two.

As to value, when anything is scarce, it can become sought after. When demand exceeds supply, prices reflect that. That is to say that I have seen an actual market centered on Case factory seconds. With prices rivaling and sometimes exceeding standard production knives. I have a couple Case factory seconds, and it is hard (but not impossible) to see the flaw that got them classified as seconds.

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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby Dinadan » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:23 am

I guess the effect on value will depend a lot on the age and overall collectability of the knife. Certainly it will lower the value. I have one knife that I assume is a factory second, a Schrade. The only defect I can find is a tiny pin crack, and the ugly X stamp on the tang. Everything else about the knife is as good or better (mostly better) than any of my other Schrades.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby americanedgetech » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:38 am

Lets say fit, and finish did not meet standards.
I CAN see re-stamping, and selling as a sub name brand. GEC/EDC is a good example.

Cash strapped? I don't really know.
Take other industries as an example. Everything from Air Conditioners to Pharmaceuticals have sub standard products. They are not destroyed because they are inventoried as Export Inventory, and sold overseas at a reported loss. That "loss" is used as a tax break. They get credit on lost profit. Even more so when they "donate" those products to another underdeveloped country.

T shirts. The Cowboys are playing the Jets for the super bowl championship... Jets win but Haynes has 10 million T shirts already printed that say Dallas "Champs".
Those T's end up in Africa, Jamaica, the Philippines, or countless other countries as "donations" bearing a HUGE tax break.

Why would Knifes be different?
Destroying them is a total loss, Scavenging them is logical but selling them, and offering no warranty makes no sense unless they were so close to free that the buyer would not care.
Then you have the issue of new buyers thinking all XYZ knives are junk based solely on the junker he has in hand.

I truly ::shrug:: do not understand this.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby espn77 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:57 am

IMHO the Remington knives this guy was selling are fake. Marks made on the blades in someone's garage with a drill press. It's interesting that he had 4 or 5 different manufacturers with the same "2nd" marks on the blades. Cobbled up junk.

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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Postby Tsar Bomba » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:27 am

I personally own confirmed factory seconds from Buck, Case, Queen, Schrade, GEC, and Camillus. Not one is a counterfeit. They're out there. In the case of the Buck and Queens they were boxed, clearly represented as seconds (either by stamping, etching, ground tang, labelling on packaging, or a combination of these), given no or reduced warranty service, and sent out the door at a discounted price. I always assumed it was because factories produce things to make money and that's one way to turn a marginal product that meets usability standards but perhaps not aesthetic ones into more capital.

I will say a couple of the seconds, including the GEC, are (or were before use) so flawless upon inspection that I could not make any determination as to the cause of the "seconding". It's actually an interesting little subgenre of the hobby IMO. If I can get away with a reasonable price I will often consider a factory second if it ticks any other boxes I'm looking to check off.

Regarding the OP Case Bros. knife, I am unfamiliar with that "drill bit tip" marking but by my logic that would seem to be more of an aftermarket marking than anything from the factory, considering the kind of tooling a larger cutler would be using.
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