"DamascusSteel" Knives-How can I tell if it's real?

[familyforge]

Hi, Fellas, Hope Y'all doing well. I just purchased a knife that was described as a new Damascus steel knife. I know what it is supposed to look like and from photos it looked ok. Now that I have it in front of me, I noticed the pattern is pretty dark, but there's a spot along the spine where the color seems to be worn away., like lets say you colored on some metal with a marker, then rubbed your thumb over it a bunch in one spot, you would still see the marker color, but it would be much lighter. That's kinda what it looks like on the knife blade. Second question; should I be able to see the pattern in the sharpened edge?
Because it looks solid silver color, so where there is the pattern on the blade, it 'stops' where it's sharpened. Am I explaining this correctly? I hope you guys understand what I mean. Anyhow, I added a few photos, hope they help. If I find out it's not Damascus steel, it's going right back. It came with a nice leather sheath, but for a new knife it does have a little side play,
that's what got me looking closer at it, I'm thinking, "how can a knife that someone just created get sent out for sale with a wobble in the blade". I paid $20. May not seem like a whole lot, but if it's a fake, it's worth zero to me. I can always find something that's worth it to spend $20 on. Well Y'all, I will sit back and see if I can get some knowledge about this stuff from you guys. Thanks a whole lot.

[terryl308]

All Damascus will be silver colored when ground, it takes a acid bath to turn it colors. the reason is most Damascus is made up of 2 or more alloys, one being high nickel content that will not turn colors when treated with acid and will remain silver. That is what brings the contrast of colors in the steel bar. I believe your blade is Damascus. If you have access to some ferric chloride, you could take a cottom swab with some on it and wipe the silver edge with it and it should turn the color of the rest of the Damascus. (be sure to wipe if off with water when done and oil it.) Terry

[americanedgetech]

I hate to be wrong but I am used to it so... I do not think that is a Damascus blade only because the dark is too dark, and the folds in the steel are not shaped correctly to have followed a grind line.

Like grain in wood, as you grind into it (the steel) the lines follow a pattern.
It looks like your knife was etched with acid, or electro etched and the pattern was hand painted with nail polish or a similar agent to keep the shiny steel underneath.

Just my opinion of a picture so hang tight for the experts.

[Berryb]

I just read the Wikipedia article on Damascus steel, to make sure I wasn't completely off base. Modern D steel is made by folding and welding ingots time after time. The patterns run more or less parallel and not in random patterns. The method of making real D steel has been lost for generations. Your knife doesn't look like either to me.
Bruce

[kiwicut]

I have to disagree emphatically with to above comment about Damascus Steel Manufacturing not being done for Centuries.

There are literally hundreds of Modern knife manufactures around the World who both make the Steel and sell it as knives and also in Billets to enable other builders to do so by Stock Removal Process.

[terryl308]

I have to disagree emphatically with to above comment about Damascus Steel Manufacturing not being done for Centuries.

There are literally hundreds of Modern knife manufactures around the World who both make the Steel and sell it as knives and also in Billets to enable other builders to do so by Stock Removal Process.

I have made close to 100 Damascus knife blades and will show you a couple. The "design" is caused by the number of folds and the type of steel used, layer numbers can run up to 500 or more. I have also used cable and made my own. The pattern goes completely though the billet or blade and makes no difference how you grind it, it's still there. If you totally grind and sharpen before etching, it will show up on the sharpe edge also. Done correctly it is a time consuming and labor intensive job. Bladesmiths are making better Damascus now then in the old days because of better material. Terry The last 3 pics are my own cable Damascus. the first couple are made out of a Devin Thomas Damascus billet.

[knife7knut]

The first picture of the OP would seem to substantiate that it is in fact a crude form of ,"Damascus" steel that has been over etched to bring out the not too consistent pattern.The other photos almost make it look like the etched Damascus patterns seen on inexpensive Pacific Rim knives.
The modern day makers of Damascus have almost created a new art form with their work.Artists such as Devin Thomas and Jerry Rados have taken it to a whole new level. Not to take anything away from the old makers;their work was incredible.I have a 17th century dagger that has the finest grain Damascus I have ever seen and the workmanship in the knife is nothing short of amazing. I also have a couple of Japanese swords of indeterminate age that sport similar workmanship.
And Terry those are some beautiful examples of your work!

[americanedgetech]

Terry's knives are beautiful, and "Damascus" steel today is more commonly known as "Pattern Welded" steel.

However the OP knife (I believe) is NOT pattern or Damascus.
There is no grain. Only random markings similar to camouflage. You can not follow a single line to an expected end.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

[knife7knut]

Terry's knives are beautiful, and "Damascus" steel today is more commonly known as "Pattern Welded" steel.

However the OP knife (I believe) is NOT pattern or Damascus.
There is no grain. Only random markings similar to camouflage. You can not follow a single line to an expected end.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

The reason I thought it was poorly constructed pattern welded steel is if you magnify the first picture you can see what looks like a highlight along the lower etch in the blade that would indicate some depth disparity. It doesn't show in the second picture because it is slightly out of focus.
Here is an example of a faux Damascus finish on a dagger.

[americanedgetech]

It's hard for ME to say Knife7.

If you go back, and sand/grind/file pattern welded steel it will look like any other steel. The coloration you see in the patterns is due solely to a specific treatment (Ferric Acid).
Take a real pattern welded steel blade that has been etched, and lightly sand a small area. It will look much like your first photo.

I wish I knew more or better ways to prove or dis-prove my thoughts on this one. I keep hoping that a knife maker or someone much more versed than I will come along, and explain all this better.

[terryl308]

First off, I AM A KNIFEMAKER! Maybe not the best in the country, but I have over 17 years of experience just in the knife making and went to the Colorado School of Trades in 1966 after getting out of the Army. So I know what I'm talking about when I told you what I know about Damascus or pattern welded steel (which ever you want to call it.) The OP knife in my opinion is a crudely done example (not many layers of 2 different alloys) The fewer layers the more course the pattern. It looks like they used some pretty thick 15N20 along with probably layers of 1084 (15N20 is high nickel content carbon steel and 1084 is a simple high carbon tool steel.) I suggest you go back and re read my first couple of posts. If you ever get to the panhandle of Nebraska, I be glad to show you how all this is done but it's going to take a few days. Terry

[knife7knut]

Here is an example of(first)17th century Damascus in a jambiya and secondly a couple of shots of Japanese sword blades.The patterns can be hard to photograph when the graining is so delicate.

[americanedgetech]

First off, I AM A KNIFEMAKER! Maybe not the best in the country, but I have over 17 years of experience just in the knife making and went to the Colorado School of Trades in 1966 after getting out of the Army. So I know what I'm talking about when I told you what I know about Damascus or pattern welded steel (which ever you want to call it.) The OP knife in my opinion is a crudely done example (not many layers of 2 different alloys) The fewer layers the more course the pattern. It looks like they used some pretty thick 15N20 along with probably layers of 1084 (15N20 is high nickel content carbon steel and 1084 is a simple high carbon tool steel.) I suggest you go back and re read my first couple of posts. If you ever get to the panhandle of Nebraska, I be glad to show you how all this is done but it's going to take a few days. Terry

Sorry Terry, I did not mean to discount your posts,
The images you posted are proof enough of your skills.

I was trying to ask for more of a method to prove/dis-prove the OP's blade more than opinion. I am often wrong but I am public about my mistakes, and I appreciate being shown a different way of looking at things.

I have to agree that if it is a Damascus blade it is not folded more than a few (2-3) times, and hardly seems worth the effort to produce. That is partially why I do not think it is Damascus. The other reason(s) I stated above.

I do know the OP could sand the blade to remove the etch, re-finish the surface to his liking, and re-dip it in Ferric acid. The pattern should show, and be almost identical. If I were in doubt of a blade I owned, and had the time, and interest... That is the route I would take.
Perhaps there is another faster, and less intrusive method?

That is what I was trying to ask or waiting to see.

No disrespect sir. I admire your skill sets from your images. Especially the Rain Drop example. I find that pattern fascinating. Like that spiral design that hypnotizes people...
The Damascus in all the other images is more what I am accustomed to seeing.

[sam eib]

I'm no expert by any means but that doesn't look like any Damascus I've ever seen.

[mrwatch]

Many early double barrel shot guns were made with Damascus twist steel. I own one. Some say they are safe to use with vintage high brass shells. Does any one here know how they were made? I own several Damascus fixed blade knives including American and English made but not carried any.

[terryl308]

mrwatch, I think you mean "low brass vintage shells" , high brass would develop too much pressure. If it were mine , I wouldn't shoot it, just admire it. I have a friend that shoots one all the time, with the proper low pressure loads (talk to a good gunsmith about it) I guess we are getting "off subject" here. Old Colt double barrels have the most beautiful Damascus I've ever seen. I believe the Damascus was forge welded around a mandrel, and if properly done was pretty good stuff for its time. Terry

[americanedgetech]

This is on the shotgun barrel. I think it also helps the thread to post it here...

[edge213]

I really enjoyed the gun barrel video. Thanks for posting.

[treefarmer]

mrwatch,
I've got a couple of old Damascus barreled shotguns and was warned by an old gunsmith many years ago not to shoot them. He explained in simple terms that made sense to me, that after years of use the Damascus barrel might fail at the point of balance. He pointed out that most long guns are carried at the point of balance quiet often and the salt from perspiration had been known to penetrate the Damascus welds and result in metal deterioration not visible to the naked eye. Thus the pressure of the shot shell could cause a barrel to come apart very close to the shooter's face. The old gunsmith even sighted a study that was done that included some type of x-ray machine that was able to substantiate the weak spots in some very old, well used shotgun barrels.
Treefarmer

[KleenCut61]

I Think The Old Add -Age You Get What You Pay For Does Some how Apply to Your Knife Sir , Giving The Circumstance ,Consider This About Tru Damascus , The More You Can Afford The Better The Product !! RIght. You Need A Knife You Can Trust ._____ Joe

[americanedgetech]

mrwatch,
I've got a couple of old Damascus barreled shotguns and was warned by an old gunsmith many years ago not to shoot them. He explained in simple terms that made sense to me, that after years of use the Damascus barrel might fail at the point of balance. He pointed out that most long guns are carried at the point of balance quiet often and the salt from perspiration had been known to penetrate the Damascus welds and result in metal deterioration not visible to the naked eye. Thus the pressure of the shot shell could cause a barrel to come apart very close to the shooter's face. The old gunsmith even sighted a study that was done that included some type of x-ray machine that was able to substantiate the weak spots in some very old, well used shotgun barrels.
Treefarmer

Look into "Nitro Proofing"
If your weapon/shotgun was nitro proofed it will have a triangular or diamond stamp on the breech. This was an overload shot to test reliability.
If not then it is nothing more than a wall hanger.

[terryl308]

mrwatch,
I've got a couple of old Damascus barreled shotguns and was warned by an old gunsmith many years ago not to shoot them. He explained in simple terms that made sense to me, that after years of use the Damascus barrel might fail at the point of balance. He pointed out that most long guns are carried at the point of balance quiet often and the salt from perspiration had been known to penetrate the Damascus welds and result in metal deterioration not visible to the naked eye. Thus the pressure of the shot shell could cause a barrel to come apart very close to the shooter's face. The old gunsmith even sighted a study that was done that included some type of x-ray machine that was able to substantiate the weak spots in some very old, well used shotgun barrels.
Treefarmer

Look into "Nitro Proofing"
If your weapon/shotgun was nitro proofed it will have a triangular or diamond stamp on the breech. This was an overload shot to test reliability.
If not then it is nothing more than a wall hanger.

You are correct on the Nitro Proofing on British made guns, your example I believe is a British made double barrel shotgun and is stamped with a crown and 2 1/2" chambers (common on English shotguns) Not sure you will find that on American made Damascus barreled shotguns, Terry

[mrwatch]

Wow! thank you for posting the video. I had no idea how it was done let alone a long barrel. We are hear to share and learn so if some one can find one on doing a 500 turn knife blade I would like to watch it. Imagine life before stamping machines. I did see a re-enactment movie of making a muzzle loading barrel and cutting the groves without a machine.

[terryl308]

mrwatch,
I've got a couple of old Damascus barreled shotguns and was warned by an old gunsmith many years ago not to shoot them. He explained in simple terms that made sense to me, that after years of use the Damascus barrel might fail at the point of balance. He pointed out that most long guns are carried at the point of balance quiet often and the salt from perspiration had been known to penetrate the Damascus welds and result in metal deterioration not visible to the naked eye. Thus the pressure of the shot shell could cause a barrel to come apart very close to the shooter's face. The old gunsmith even sighted a study that was done that included some type of x-ray machine that was able to substantiate the weak spots in some very old, well used shotgun barrels.
Treefarmer

Look into "Nitro Proofing"
If your weapon/shotgun was nitro proofed it will have a triangular or diamond stamp on the breech. This was an overload shot to test reliability.
If not then it is nothing more than a wall hanger.

You are correct on the Nitro Proofing on British made guns, your example I believe is a British made double barrel shotgun and is stamped with a crown and 2 1/2" chambers (common on English shotguns) Not sure you will find that on American made Damascus barreled shotguns, Terry

Made a mistake, the 2 1/2 refers to tons of pressure per sq in. Chamber length would have been stamped in metric (70 mm). And Nitro Proof was for Nitro cellulose powder not black powder.

[americanedgetech]

mrwatch,
I've got a couple of old Damascus barreled shotguns and was warned by an old gunsmith many years ago not to shoot them. He explained in simple terms that made sense to me, that after years of use the Damascus barrel might fail at the point of balance. He pointed out that most long guns are carried at the point of balance quiet often and the salt from perspiration had been known to penetrate the Damascus welds and result in metal deterioration not visible to the naked eye. Thus the pressure of the shot shell could cause a barrel to come apart very close to the shooter's face. The old gunsmith even sighted a study that was done that included some type of x-ray machine that was able to substantiate the weak spots in some very old, well used shotgun barrels.
Treefarmer

Look into "Nitro Proofing"
If your weapon/shotgun was nitro proofed it will have a triangular or diamond stamp on the breech. This was an overload shot to test reliability.
If not then it is nothing more than a wall hanger.

You are correct on the Nitro Proofing on British made guns, your example I believe is a British made double barrel shotgun and is stamped with a crown and 2 1/2" chambers (common on English shotguns) Not sure you will find that on American made Damascus barreled shotguns, Terry

I am not 100% positive so don't get blown up but I believe the US version is a Triangle stamp.

For Red Neck shotguns that we find in "junk shops" we use this emoji... (like the stick figure under the forklift)

Wow! thank you for posting the video. I had no idea how it was done let alone a long barrel. We are hear to share and learn so if some one can find one on doing a 500 turn knife blade I would like to watch it. Imagine life before stamping machines. I did see a re-enactment movie of making a muzzle loading barrel and cutting the groves without a machine.

I owe you for your help in the Ultra Sonic thread... Thank YOU!
A few you tube links... I'll just embed the first one.



Barrel riffling... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvwOcrC6cdU


OP, Sorry for sidetracking sir.
The sword video, and many others on that same Utube page will show the Damascus that us newbies are used to seeing.
Like I said earlier, I have never seen such a "crude" looking Damascus.

It appears you didnt pay much for the knife so I would invest a couple bucks in a bottle of Ferric acid or Ferric Chloride at Lowes or Home Depot, where ever..., Sand the finish till it looks like plain steel, and dip the blade for a few minutes.
You can do it with the knife assembled. Just keep the acid dip off the rest of the knife.