I received my first GEC in the mail today......

[dewman]

....and I wan't exactly pleased. After all the talk here on AAPK and reading the mission statement from GEC about how their intent was to produce the best knife available anywhere, I thought I'd go ahead and spring for one of the #23 Primitive Bone Jumbo Trappers. Bear in mind, this post is in no way a reflection on the establishment who sold me this knife....this is just my own evaluation of the knife. The accompanying photos will help describe my "issues" with the knife.

Item #1. The photo from the butt of the knife shows the difference in the thickness of the scales. The pile side measures .130", the shield side mikes at .188". Quite a difference that points to, in my opinion, very poor quality control....or an "it's close enough for government work" attitude. Would you/could you/should you live with this?

Item #2. Take a look at the main spring pivot pin. The pile side was slightly countersunk, making for a nice, smooth feel. But the shield side has been "squashed" over, leaving sharp edges and a very unprofessional look. Hell, even the Chinese do better than that!

Item #3. The spey blade, when in the half stop position, has .185" of slop, allowing the blade to "swing in the wind" if you will. The hinge side of the blade, when in this position, doesn't even touch the main spring.
Again....where were the quality control people? Asleep at the wheel? On a coffee break, or again an "It's close enough for government work" attitude?

Item #4. This is the least objectionable of my four complaints, but still, for $85, I expected more than what I got. The pile side scale fits nice and tight to the bolster. The shield side has a very noticeable gap. On a knife that only has a front bolster, that shouldn't ever be an issue. I haven't done much in the way of rehandling knives, but I DO know knives WITHOUT a rear bolster are the easiest of all to fit.

So....am I a happy camper? Not in the least. I've bought knives for less than half what I payed for this one and walked away with a smile on my face and a knife I'd be proud to show off.

Granted, this is my first GEC and I'm sure they're capable of producing a fine product, but if there was just ONE lemon, you can bet your sweet bippy, I'll be the one to get it.

So....I guess you can tell by my attitude, I'm very disappointed and dissolusioned by what I've seen today. Disheartened to see what I thought was a product that was going to put the USA on the knife making map fall far short of their mission statement.

I know there will be many of you who will come back with the old saw about "If you want a 'custom knife', you're gonna' have to pay a lot more than $85" ....and maybe you'd be right. And $85 might not be much for you high dollar guys to fork out for a pocket knife and you might be more than willing to accept the flaws in the knife I received
today. Not me. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not ever. It goes back to GEC tomorrow with photos of my issues with their product....along with my application for a position in their quality control department. Obviously they need someone who knows $hit from Shinola!

Regards,
Dewman

[useem]

Man, thats too bad. I have been lucky so far (4), but do get nervouse everytime i get one. You are right, those problems are unacceptable. But i am pretty sure they will make things right with you. Is that a 2006, or a 2007 model? Edit, never mind. I see the dual stamp.

[Hukk]

This is a transition knife considered highly collectable because they had a lot of 2006 blades left over. They stamped it with 2007 and made a rare double stamp as far as the cutlery industry is concerned. They can't afford to throw out a large number of blades because they are still a small company. But, I believe they will make it right for you, that's been my experience.

Sorry to hear you got a lemon, your pictures and description are very accurate and I would send a copy of your post with the knife, I did that and must say that they adressed all of my concerns.

When GEC first came out and I got my first 2 knives I was quite excited while holding them under the table, then, I looked at possibly the 2 worst finished knives I have ever seen. They repaired them in 30 days, IIRC and I was quite pleased. I have been very fortunate since then, only a proud pin now and then. They have made great strides since then and I scrutinize my knives carefully. I do hear of an occasional problem like you have shown. I believe I have about 50+ including my son's and only the first 2 were bad.

I called the phone number on the tube and somehow I was able to speak to Bill Howard, president of GEC.

I do understand GEC does not claim to be perfect, but a line needs to be firmly and pleasantly drawn to continue to attract the collector market. Not only is it in the best interest of the collectors overall, but the life blood of GEC. The majority of their knives will never be used.

The people that work there, the new cutlers need to understand the importance of the collector market and our concerns. I had a part of this conversation on Sunday, I'll have to call tomorrow, I owe cash anyway.

Once again, sorry to hear about you getting a lemon, they do need the feedback. Good Luck, they made it right with me, I hear that they try to do that.

[TM]

Man, that's a bummer. It reminds me of when I decided to spring for one of Case's elephant toes. It cost $115, and was ordered online. I was really disappointed. The springs were messed up, and you could barely even open the blades. It had rub marks on it right out of the box as well. You'd think that a product thats supposed to be 'limited production' and in that price range would have been made better - or at least, like you said, QC would have caught it. I sent it back and couldn't bring myself to buy another one without being able to inspect it first.

[gmusic]

Hey Dewman,

It does appear you received one with more than tolerable defects. I have returned 3 of 19 I've purchased, roughly 15%. I still think they have a good thing going, but, if they continue along this path people will lose interest in their product.

QC may not necessarily be the problem. The employee doing the inspecting is receiving his training; his direction from someone above him, the company is only as good as its management. I hope they don’t have the attitude, let’s just send it out and see what happens, they may not like what they see!

I defended this fledgling company with vigor in the past, asking folks to be patient. That was some months ago, and it seems they are still having trouble getting it together. If they don't straighten up soon they may do irreversible damage to their reputation.

This jury is still out…………………


seeya

[justold52]

"inspect it first"

The last one to inspect it should have been the seller.

I feel the dealer can help GEC by checking the knife out better.

After all he works for the company in a way.

I know that an old ACE Hardware Store would check out a knife in front of the customer before handing it to him.

Do to that fact and if he wants to keep a good reputation.

He should check out his goods before they go out the door too.

All Gec has to do is come up with a plan that if any dealer finds a bad knife just return it and then GEC should reward the dealer in some small way.

I know the post-man wins this way but that is better than making a customer angry.

Just my way of looking at this.

[dewman]

[quote="Hukk"]This is a transition knife considered highly collectable because they had a lot of 2006 blades left over. =quote]

Anyone who thinks this is "collectable", I'll be happy to sell it to you for $85. That's what I paid and I'd be glad for someone to add it to THEIR collection. I have enough fishing sinkers as it is!

[Hukk]

This is a transition knife considered highly collectable because they had a lot of 2006 blades left over. =quote]

Anyone who thinks this is "collectable", I'll be happy to sell it to you for $85. That's what I paid and I'd be glad for someone to add it to THEIR collection. I have enough fishing sinkers as it is!

Sorry, I should have said that once it has under gone repair as last I heard their would be a maximum of 186 pieces, some River Valley Green and the others Primative Bone. How much of either, I don't know and they may not reach that goal. Once repaired it should be worth much more than a 2007, less than a 2006 when only 36 were made.
This knife would only be a collectable once repaired and that was my line of thought. You're right, at present it is a sinker. Believe me, when I first saw my first 2, I felt sick, even 3 of the blades on 2 knives needed to be replaced. I made a post, My Great Easterns I think it was. The knife is worth sending back to the factory if you wish to do so, But I agree, someone needs to be kicked in the butt for sending that out, I thought those days were over. No that knife should never have left the factory.

[dewman]

It's already packaged up, along with photos, a copy of my post on here and a polite letter to Mr. Bill Howard concerning my problem with HIS knife. We'll see what comes of it. What a hunk of junk. I've got Steel Warriors, Boker magnums, Rough Riders AND U.S. Classics that will leave that POS in the dust. And I hate to admit it on this forum, but yes, I do indeed possess Chinese knives.

[Forensic Jim]

I just saw some GEC knives Saturday at my knife club meeting. I would have to say from what I saw, they all looked very nice and well made. GEC, will probably make it right, and send you back a something you will be happier with. I have had issues with just about every brand, especially Case, and have sent knives back to them because they were just unacceptable.

[sunburst]

And I hate to admit it on this forum, but yes, I do indeed possess Chinese knives.

Say it aint so... , just joking of course dewman.

I have not added much to the ongoing discussion of GEC's entry into the knife world. I have purchased several models and sold everyone but one and that one has become an EDC knife. I respect everyone's opinion here on our forum and realize the experience compiled here is pretty amazing and appreciated.

I was excited about GEC coming into the cutlery world and especially the fact that they are an American company and we all know that is such a rare thing these days. I patiently waited for the first release and quickly bought up a couple of them. What I received were fair knives but in comparison with the competition of Schatt & Morgan, Boker, Bulldog, Fight'N Rooster and others they did not stand out in my opinion ( we all know that opinions are like Aholes everyone has one)

To get to the point of this conversation I just realized that I could purchase other knives as collectable if not more so, at a more affordable price and with established quality control over their products. Some of us cannot afford to get every knife coming down the pike so when we do purchase one to use or collect at the cost of a $100 bill it had better be worth that expense or we just used our limited finances on something still untried and tested.

So I chose to let others enjoy themselves with GEC and wish them much succsess in their collecting of this American company. I would imagine that one day they will be much desired to have as a collectors piece. I am going to stay away from the hype of something new to collect and hope to snag a knife or two from more established lines.

Sunburst

[needbucks]

Hi Dewman.

My first GEC was a primitive bone and I had several issues with it as posted here. I have since picked up 3 more (2 Bakote wood and a River Valley Green bone). I have to say the 2 bakote wood are decent. The Green River Valley bone is very nice.

All in all, my GEC experience has been less than perfect, but so has my experience with other manufacturers. Like you I expect $85 worth of value for $85.

Don't give up on them. I will probably not buy many more of them without actually holding them in my hands first though. And since there is no such thing as a local dealer, that probably means that I won't get any more. All things subject to change of course!

[TM]

Ken - I agree with you. It's really in the dealers best interest to make sure he's shipping out a quality product. Otherwise, he won't have many customers for long.

[justold52]

TM ; Hello and thank you for your post.

Some times I say things and no one comments back.
I was getting the feeling that I was trying to give a little help to the problem gather than bashing any one.

Back in the good OLD Days.... That is just the way I bought my knives and tools. The store sales person helped me. And showed me why this knife was better than that one. The family owned ACE Store is still in business to day. I am sure it is hard on the Old Dutch to fill their store with China made things but now days they have to. And yet they sell a lot of QUILITY stuff when they can. I guess the Germans and Dutch just can't afford cheap things....

[Hukk]

Hey Dewman,

It does appear you received one with more than tolerable defects. I have returned 3 of 19 I've purchased, roughly 15%. I still think they have a good thing going, but, if they continue along this path people will lose interest in their product.
QC may not necessarily be the problem. The employee doing the inspecting is receiving his training; his direction from someone above him, the company is only as good as its management. I hope they don’t have the attitude, let’s just send it out and see what happens, they may not like what they see!
I defended this fledgling company with vigor in the past, asking folks to be patient. That was some months ago, and it seems they are still having trouble getting it together. If they don't straighten up soon they may do irreversible damage to their reputation.
This jury is still out…………………
seeya

I also have defended them quite vigorously I should add, rather blatantly easy to see from my posts.

However, I will not defend an individual defective knife, such as yours.

I for one agree that QC belongs at the factory and that the factory should not depend on their dealers and distributors to save their hides. What to do? Well, a QC program is such an easy thing to set up with meaningful statistical data to point out where the problems come from. It is real easy to set up parameters, expectations for each step of making the parts and assembly.

It starts out with merely with each employee understanding what his/her expectations are. Understand why set in stone specifications are important. At each step of the way an employee should inspect his/her work. Does it pass mechanical inspections (Visual and Measured). They are new products, do they have proper tolerances set up to prevent tolerence stack up defects? (everything in spec but still have a faulty knife). Each employee at each step of the way should be able to sort out good parts vs. potential defects, No parts is parts mentality.

Do not pass on potentially defective parts, they can be dealt with later. Institute a Final Inspection BEFORE it is sent out for an engraver to be numbered.

The scales, would it be to hard to set up a bunch of bins, each one having scales within say .010 of each other or whatever is considered acceptable. Sure, it takes a little time BUT in the long run not much time at all, certainly less than having a person sort through one bin full of mis-matched scales. A person that would put scales on that were mis-matched by .060, DOES NOT KNOW THEIR JOB-period end of discussion, thats nearly a full 50% of the smaller scale.

Every knife they rework, means they lose money whether at the factory or worse yet, out the door, BECAUSE that hurts their reputation.

Even though there is an occassional knife such as this, I will still support GEC and their products. I know the upper management knows the collector market, they've been in it for over 60 years combined. To avoid knives such as this, a Statistical Quality Control System needs to be implemented AND upper management needs to pass on their knowledge of the collector market to those doing the work. Everyone needs to understand WHY, not just HOW! 23 years of experience in this field tell me that how and why need to be understanded to continually produce a quality product, they need to understand the collector market to survive.

I have somewhere north of 50 knives from GEC and only 2 were sent back or needed to be sent back. We as collectors do need to see that GEC shows growth by implementing systems to avoid knives that do not meet the standards of quality from reaching the market.

I still support what GEC is doing and will continue to buy their products.

[dewman]

Hukk, you expressed my feelings about the situation with my first GEC knife spot on. If they make good on the knife I sent in for repairs.... and when it arrives back in my mitts, it passes muster, I will indeed consider buying another. But, as someone said earlier, "the jury is still out". However, I WILL hold the next one in my hand BEFORE I fork over the cash. Period!

[Hukk]

Hukk, you expressed my feelings about the situation with my first GEC knife spot on. If they make good on the knife I sent in for repairs.... and when it arrives back in my mitts, it passes muster, I will indeed consider buying another. But, as someone said earlier, "the jury is still out". However, I WILL hold the next one in my hand BEFORE I fork over the cash. Period!

I've been a QC guy for 23 years and seeing a knife like this just drives me nuts, especially since some of the knives I have; I rate as near custom, the highest rating I will give a production knife. AND, 1 of these is a knife same as yours, incredible disparity in quality, as a QC guy, you know that just has to drive me NUTS! Especially since I make knives and sheaths. I'm mending well and hope to be back in the shop quite soon, days now.

You know, there is still a lot of folks that never heard of GEC. These folks rely on shows to buy and sell. They don't use computers and many have AWESOME collections of knives. They see a knife like this, forget it, won't give it another thought.

A FEW points:
1. A person that would put scales on that were mis-matched by .060, DOES NOT KNOW THEIR JOB-period end of discussion, thats nearly a full 50% of the smaller scale.

2. Each employee at each step of the way should be able to sort out good parts vs. potential defects, No parts is parts mentality.

3. Institute a Final Inspection BEFORE it is sent out for an engraver to be numbered.

4. It is real easy to set up parameters, expectations for each step of making the parts and assembly. Maybe it has never been done in cutlery, but maybe it needs to be done. Not everyone has the same work ethics and those folks need to be identified so that they can understand what is needed, in black and white - get rid of as much gray area as possible.

5. To avoid knives such as this, a Statistical Quality Control System needs to be implemented AND upper management needs to pass on their knowledge of the collector market to those doing the work. Everyone needs to understand WHY, not just HOW!

6. LAST AND NOT LEAST I still support what GEC is doing and will continue to buy their products.

This is merely a summary of the key points of my previous post. I do want to acknowledge the strides they have made in reducing rework, or at least I hear more happy tales than sad. Realize that you will hear the bad stuff more often than the good because GOOD IS EXPECTED, therefore not acknowledged.

[knifeswapper]

If this knife had the endcap on it, two of the problems would not exist. That variance in bone at the butt end would not be noticable and the slab would have been cut to size and fit perfectly at the other end. It appears to me that the thickness is fairly consistent from a top or bottom view and just not tapered to the end uniformely. But the customer needs their voice heard on expectations.

The spun head having some flack is a minor issue, but could have easily been cleaned off at the finishing table.

The blade slack at half stop. No excuse, and probably by standards the only actual warranteed defect.

But to be fair, if anyone is going to put their handles up to any kind of benchmark, DO NOT BUY PRIMITIVE BONE. It is what it is; soft in some spots, inconsistent from end to end, and full of natural defects. I would almost guarantee that 95% of Great Eastern customers would rather have it mismatched in size as compared to what it probably started as (full of cracks and lines on the surface). It probably ended up in the hands of one of the other 5% I have looked at over 50 of these primitive bone models; and they are a very interesting slab with every one having its own character. But almost every one would be considered flawed using standing criteria. Out of 16 knives that I have either sent back or have sitting aside to send back, 12 have been primitive bone. And, of the others, there was only 1 per se defect. And that is about 5% with primitive bone included.

If dealers get to the point that they have to be the final QC for every waranteed knife they sell, I can guarantee the margins would go way up. For example, factory fresh Case knives that I buy have generally gone through Case, a distributor, a master dealer, then me. Should each level unwrap the knife and guess as to whether 98% of all customers will deem it acceptable? By then the knife has been handled so much that (according to another thread I saw the other day) it would no longer even be deemed "mint". Most of my customers don't want anybody opening a factory wrapped knife. Dealers sure don't want to open factory wrapped knives, for a multitude of reasons. Not to mention that if dealers started sending back knives such as this one for repair, they would probably not be a dealer for very long. Not saying this knife should not go back; but the company needs to know what real customer expectations are, not what some old grumpy dealer thinks about them.

A long post just to say a couple of things. GEC is not consistently making perfect knives yet. But they need their customers to define the perfect knife for them.

[Hukk]

I talked to Bill Howard (I must have been fortunate) and we agreed that, really there is no such thing as a perfect knife. But I think we can all agree that a standard of quality needs to be established. That's what GEC needs to define and has yet to do. EXACTLY what constitutes quality? To me quality means that it meets both visual and mechanical specifications.

Maybe there are no specifications which could also be called goals or targets. Mike is 100% correct, Primative Bone is what it is, I failed to acknowledge that, but I do believe that the handles could have been better matched. But he is right again about the rear bolster, it would hide or minimize the scale mis-match.

They will likely have to take the knife apart to fix the slack in the blade at half stop. Yeah, I forgot that part also.
I just got on a roll about what they could do internally at the factory to minimize visual defects as well as mechanical.

[ridetheedge]

Of the $85.00 you paid how much does the Company get?

How much does the Dealer get?

I just read an enlightening article in a knife publication that the mark up on knives is around 60%.

So in your case the manufacturer gets $34 for the knife you bought.

Out of that comes the cost of materials, utilities and mortgage, labor, etc.

If we all bought direct from the manufacturer and they got all the profit instead of the middle man imagine the knives we would get.

I started collecting this year and have 2 case classics, although nice they are not perfect.

I doubt any handcrafted product will be perfect.

[knifeswapper]

If they cost $34 and they are marked up 60%; isn't that $54 (34 x 1.6)? And I'm a buyer at $54, much less $34

It doesn't work the same way in reverse....
It is $85 / 1.6 to find cost with 60% markup; not $85 x 40%. And it is actually $79 because that is the cheapest I find them and nobody gets to keep the shipping costs.

That gets me sometimes too.

[dewman]

I started collecting this year and have 2 case classics, although nice they are not perfect.

I doubt any handcrafted product will be perfect.

Perfect? I DIDN'T expect PERFECT! Take a look at the photos. That's not within a MILE of perfect! What I did expect for my $85 was a knife that at LEAST would match the quality of a $15 Chinese made Steel Warrior. I DID expect a knife that lived up to the mission statement of the manufacturer.
Like I said....it wasn't even close.

I build cabinets and furniture for a living and if I turned out products like that, I can guarantee you I'd be in the welfare line in a heartbeat. I take pride in what I build. I doubt if I've ever produced a piece that's absolutely perfect, but that's my goal from the very first cut. I DO go over each and every piece I send out with a FINE TOOTH COMB, and I'm my harshest critic. If it doesn't pass my inspection, it doesn't go out to my customers. My reputation was built on almost 40 years with that very attitude. THAT'S WHAT I EXPECTED FROM THEM. I don't think that's too much to ask......do you?

[dewman]

Mike, come on now.....the variation in thickness of the scales, looking from the butt end could have very easily been corrected by taking more of the material off on the side that was AGAINST the liner. It has NOTHING to do with the cracks that were on the OUTSIDE. That had already been finished and polished. It was simply TOO thick. Period. Pure simple logic that I face every day when working with wood. Nothing magical about it, primitive bone or not. That knife was a hideous example of craftsmanship and totally unacceptable. Like Hukk said, that knife should NEVER have left the factory.

[ridetheedge]

If they cost $34 and they are marked up 60%; isn't that $54 (34 x 1.6)? And I'm a buyer at $54, much less $34

It doesn't work the same way in reverse....
It is $85 / 1.6 to find cost with 60% markup; not $85 x 40%. And it is actually $79 because that is the cheapest I find them and nobody gets to keep the shipping costs.

That gets me sometimes too.

Very good, I used to be in retail and worked from the cost to the selling price.
So point being made who makes more profit the manufacturer or the middleman?
This knife is now being sold to the middleman at $49 ( if in fact markup is 60%) if you minus all the expenses, cost of materials, labor, utilities etc. What is the profit? My guess it is less than the $30 the middle man makes.
Sorry but I have a problem with the middleman making so much with little risk. In a perfect world we would buy direct from the manufacturer at a lower price, or better yet pay the same but get a better product, say pearl instead of bone.

[knifeswapper]

ridetheridge: You are working from bad numbers; and when you start with bad numbers things don't just fall into place later down the algorithm. Like I said, I am a distributor for GEC and I am a buyer if you find them for $54. This is a very competitive market, and the article you read was probably referring to the large retailers; and why don't you compare the little guys prices to those big boys and see the difference in the margins. But can you imagine printing color magazines and hiring 100 people to support this market; their expense has to be outrageous. Even at my level, the overhead is better than 10%; so it is not like they are drop shipping from the factory and bought cash only.

Having said that, I think I was the first one that said here that something would have to happen for GEC to stay in business. They would either have to increase production dramatically or raise the prices. At this point they are doing both. If you are in retail then you understand the importance of market penetration and the minimal profit during that cycle. So, don't lose sleep worrying about the manufacturers profit as they are savvy folks.

I already see dealer costs going up with the customer price point remaining stable; thus dealer margins will fall as the product line becomes generally accepted and liquid. For example, sellers at my level are pulling less than 10% profit on new Case knives because they are a no risk / high turnover brand.

So as a collector, I can appreciate your assertions; but as a dealer that knows they are not correct and I feel a little compelled to speak.



dewman: Those bone slabs are not buffed to thickness and size before they are installed. It is just like pearl or ivory; when you start taking them down to the bolster and to fit you will uncover things that you did not expect. Having said that, you are completely right in that the other side should have been taken down to match. But with this bone; if you start taking the other side down and come across a wormhole or something you will be in trouble again. It is like a bad haircut, by the time you get it evened out you may have a burr.

I have some that you can actually see where the bone is softer in a spot and when they took it down the grit ate that spot a lot faster than the rest of the slab; causing an area that you will have lost your mind over. But it is the nature of working with a bone "in a state of natural deterioration, showing severe age and weathering" (advertised remarks on Primitive Bone). All the other bones have jigging on them before they start and are in a stable format; thus they will always be very consistent in thickness (because you can't do a lot of buffing once pinned on anyway).

If they would shelf this Primitive Bone today it would be too late for me; as I don't like a knife with a crack from one end to the other. But, as you have seen, the problems with it goes beyond just the finished surface appearance and makes it a slab that is just too complicated to put into customer hands. I don't think I could go through every one I have and find one that would be acceptable if not marketed as Primitive Bone was.

But again, your knife did not meet your expectations and that is all that matters to the company and the dealers. And I have cleaned 200 of these for storage and not noticed the blade play that yours had; so I am going to be testing half-stop spring tension more closely now as well. And will send it back if it has the slop that yours did. So you have already improved the quality of the end product as far as I am concerned.

Don't kid yourself, every knife that goes back to the factory raises the price of the next line coming out. You can especially see this on the Primitive Bone. This line is 10%+ more expensive than the other handles; I expect solely due to the expectations of returns due to the handle inconsistencies.

The bottom line is that collectors do not have to settle for something not acceptable to them. Period. But there are always circumstances surrounding a given issue that need to be understood. And when you pull on one end of the rope the other end moves. And understanding all this I would have sent the knife back in your situation, thus don't confuse my comments for criticism...

As a dealer I would be better off not to participate in either of these conversations and just sit back and listen. But I keep thinking I can add a little to the conversation having a little different perspective. I promise you my business does not revolve around money; it is the ability to do every day what I/WE love to do. And the friends met along the way end up being the most important aspect. The net profit goes 100% back into knives that will start the whole cycle over again.