The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

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The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by espn77 »

I read up a little on this knife. It has no markings, no stamp. Nothing. Only the set screw for the lock tension is why I think this knife is the "black knife" a prototype made by Ron Miller distributed by Charles Ochs. Later made by him. Any information either way would help as this knife is way far away from any knife knowledge I have. Thanks Keith
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by wazu013 »

This is an article from 2009. I hope it helps you out.

"Some here may know this info already,some wont,but this is a general detailed history of the how,and who about the infamous "Black Knife" hope you enjoy it.
Back in 1987, a custom maker named Ron Miller in Largo Florida,finally began building a prototype plunge lock auto he had been thinking about for several years.
He had hopes of selling the knife to US Army Special Forces Reserve troops stationed nearby in Homestead Fl.He etched Special Forces and the insignia of same onto the handle scales. A knife making friend of his suggested a set screw adjustment that solved known lock up troubles. The original knife bears only marginal resemblance to the now infamous "Black Knife". The original looks more like the Al Mar auto and Benchmade AFO than the later version.

By early 1988,the second generation of the knife, 25 in total, serial numbered (1001-1025)were completed.
The Green Beret logo was pantographed on side, but the words Special Forces were deleted.
Reserve members privately bought 17 of this group.,..
Here's the important part==the remaining eight knives went to custom maker Charlie Ochs on CONSIGNMENT.
That's right, contrary to what you here in shows and the knife community constantly- Charlie Ochs neither designed ,nor created the original Black Knife, it was Ron Miller.

**Now , I have to respect Mr Ochs for the fact that while he refined the knife, he has never once stated in public or print that it was HIS knife design originally. This is just another case of rumor & supposition becoming fact and history.**

Miller then (still in 88) assembled a group of 53 totally STERILE versions with now hollow ground blades and aluminum handles.
Ochs sold the majority of these knives for Miller, to fireman, cops, Marines and US Navy Pilots , all of whom had previously bought custom knives from him.

Here is where the ball game changes--- Ochs began to lobby for design changes to the original knife. Namely, a smoother more rounded handle, and what has become the easily recognized modern Black Knife- a drop point blade, with a center ridge and a false top edge,a lowered "port" cut into the handle to mask the button from accidental firing.(serrations weren't added until 1992)

From an engineering standpoint the knife was great, machined handles meant no need for liners, bolsters, or scales. a Phillips head screwdriver was all you needed for takedown and cleaning or repair. The button locked it open or closed, no liner lock, no back lock needed either.
The use of the constant pressure torsion spring was brilliant,no rebound problems, like typical kicker spring autos.

A firm in Michigan began making the parts ,they laser cut 1200 blanks of 440c, and a second firm ground the blades on automatic machines.
The vibratory system they used to polish the blades had the results of taking off the crisp grind lines , the blades were offered in 3 choices, bead blast, black, or bright.
The handles were CNC made in Florida, then sent off to yet another location to be anodized.
Geeze what it takes to produce a knife can seem like endless drudgery.

The Black Knife has at this point reached its final development at 3 3/4 in 440c drop point blade, with 5 1/2 in black CNC aluminum handles, 11/16 thick overall.

** As an experiment a few pieces were given high visibility orange finishes,and another four dozen( that would be 48 Dood-we know you hate hard work like adddin and substractin'
were given camo coloring with two shades of green. When it was found that black was the clear choice of buyers, all other options were dropped**

1989, suggestions are made to Ochs that he use his contacts in the SF community to market the knife ,.. sales picked up dramatically overnight it seems,as between 88-1990, over 1200 knives were shipped.
Near 90 % went private sale to workers at government agencies , DEA,Border Patrol, ATF, FBI, EOD Bomb Techs,

once this initial run was sold off, or nearly so, then a second consignment of 1400 was attempted - it had a fatal flaw however- they changed blade contractors at the last minute, and boy did it play hell.
You see ALL the blades , that's right 1400 of them, were far off spec.
Each and every knife had to be hand assembled and tweaked to function.(Sounds like exactly what happened to Mr Brad and his nice auto try)
The vibratory process is scrapped -so the crisp grind lines are evident, the bright polish option gone, only blast grey or black in these, the assembly is tighter and solid.
The Knives in this batch are actually BETTER made and more desirable to me that the predecessors as far as they all got special attention in building.

OK this is RUMOR CONTROL on the air: Contrary to Soldier of Fortune magazine, and every khaki clad glassy eyed wannabe you meet at the shows,young or old- There is absolutely NO truth to the knife issued as combat gear to CIA,or Marine Recon units. The ONE and ONLY US contract buy of these knives is the US Navy SEAL's.
According to DOD records in the Navy archives, a group of 5 knives (not 5000-FIVE) were sent to the SEAL's in 1989 for testing The SEALS were suitably impressed and placed an order for supplies on 6/17/91 for 5 more "Emergency CBR Suit Cutters " from Ochs Enterprises(Since changed to OX Enterprises)
CBR was created especially for the purchase and does not exist-Chemical ,Biological,Radiation suit cutter was used to avoid the sinister connotation of ordering Switchblade Knives, by a SEAL team.
The fact of a highly trained unit of the US military, taught to kill silently,bare handed,infiltrate with full auto silenced weapons, and usually used to seriously ruin a bad guys day and exit without its presence known,would be nervous about asking for a switchblade just puts me on the floor laughing.

**(from what I've found in the archives ,the final purchase order was placed by CDR James E Wardrobe ,Commanding Officer, Special Boat Unit 12, (Coronado) San Diego ,Ca on June 24 , 1991)**
Another reason for this term being used was the knives were ordered during the buildup for the first Gulf War in 91. Everyone thought the Iraqis would use the chem rocket warheads on us , so it was believed that the auto knife would free a man from the contaminated suit that much faster .
In reviews sent to Ochs, the SEAL's felt the knife should replace the Ka Bar MKIII, and the 440c blades held up well in salt water, also the plunger button worked ar a depth of 60 ft.
Pretty good selling point.
These knives were purchased for 100 ea, yup 1 Benjamin , not too bad a rate of inflation as I saw real one go for 150 in ATL this past year. Always wanted one of the crisp line ,black sterile ones myself, had one, but left it behind after an overseas trip with a buddy who needed it.

Unofficially quite a few went to Iraq for both wars.
SEAL team 4 took several personal purchase Black Knives into Iraq/91-93, all functioned with no problems.
Only breakage report was a civilian employee who decided to whack the knife as hard as he could spine side into a desk to "test the lock" and broke the coil spring out of its slot. Well I hope the owner "tested' his melon the same way.

The originals are sterile as I've pointed out, but the current made version has "MADE in USA" on the butt.
This was controversial at first , buyers who wanted the "look' wanted sterile ,no country of origin, I suppose for both the collector value, the bragging rights to a "SEAL" knife, and real warriors who didn't want marked equipment. But the real story is, too many companies have blatantly ripped off the design and sell them as "the Black Knife". So Charlie too Microsoft style steps to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Charlie also states a rule of thumb- NO knife that has the blade running entirely into the handle came from his shop .
The so called "Florida Group' knives were Ron an Charlie's baby.
There's also a group from Oregon copying the knife, as well as a fellow who has sold as least 8-10 THOUSAND of the knock offs over the years. At one point he had 3500 sets of handles in crates in his garage.
Most of the copies for some reason are about 3/4 to 1 in under the standard length of there real thing.
One especially seen one at shows is the shorter version with a parachute/SF style etch on the blade. Its a fake gang, stand clear.

How and why?- well first and foremost is the simplest reason anyone does anything, there's money to be made here.
Secondly?=Neither the design or its basic structure was EVER patented.
Remember these knives are Machined , so all it takes to make a tape ( a term used in 3 D laser measurement) is a working sample and VOILA! , you're in business.
Even the big boys saw the stacks of green pouring in and jumped onboard , producing autos with barely cosmetic changes but the same internals,.. think Boker, Benchmade, little known Barrel Industries, American Tactical, Microtech, Paragon, etc.

Production stopped in 1994 of the original knives,.. but the success of the rip off artist brought it back ( think Colt stopping the single action -then seeing a demand for it give rise to 13 companies ,Colt comes back to the table 10 years later and wipes the floor with them all)
Ron Miller passed on in 1995, ending the era of Black Knife it was thought.
Since then Charlie Ochs has taken on the mantle of having these produced in batches from the original parts manufacturer.
The modern Black Knife has a few design changes that distinguish it from its predecessor as follows:

A groove has been added down the center of each handle scale,
a pocket clip added to right rear handle,made of 304 stainless
the blade is marked "OX ENT.BLK-95" in two lines on left rear of blade (YEAR DATE changes with calendar year of manuf.)
He only made 1000 a year so far, in batches of 500.

Ochs as of two years ago, still did factory service work on the knives,You can still contact him and ask , if you have an original Black Knife with problems.
Back then he asked for the knife, and 5 bucks, yup 5 smackers and he fixed it.
No knocks please, unless you want a hammered pile of cr*p back in the mail

Ochs has several times said he plans to discontinue the straight blade ,and only produce the serrated 60/40 version as the demand for the knife LEO, as well as Military needs more tool and quick use blade than plain edge.


And now you know, ... the REST of the story. Hope you were at least entertained for a bit, if not enlightened at all


The Black Knife may not be to your particular tastes, but as an auto connoisseur and student of knife history , you should own at least a single example of the real thing."
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by Paladin »

Very good and informative article. I am a traditional type collector but I really enjoyed this article. Thanks for posting. ::tu::

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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by espn77 »

Thanks wazu. It does help
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by Paladin »

Did 'we' ever decide if your knife was an original 'black knife' or not?

Ray
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by espn77 »

We haven't Ray. I guess I'm under the impression that it is a Charles Ochs model between 88-92 but I'm not certain.
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by btrwtr »

Very informational post. Not my type of knife but good reading and history. Thanks!
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by espn77 »

Not my style either Wayne. But it has amazing quality. First time I pushed the button it flung out of my hand. That's how fast and hard it came open. I it in a group knife purchase and I'm looking to sell it as I have committed to buy some really nice bullet knives. ::groove:: needing cash. Lol
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by Tsar Bomba »

Was the second run with the off-spec blades 1990-92? Because judging from the grind lines on the OP example, that looks like a matte finish that didn't undergo the "vibratory" process at all. Which, presumably, makes OP knife one of the more desirable versions (aside from the "original 5", so to speak).

Appreciate you posting that article, wazu, and thanks for sharing a lovely auto, Keith! If/when you post for sale, send me a PM to the listing?
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by Brian_R170 »

I realize this post is almost 9 months old post, but I found this on a Google search and it doesn't look like espn77 ever got an answer.

The knife in the OP's photo was made by Rob Dalton of Dalton Combat Cutlery. The model is called the Baby Seal. Dalton made some of the Baby Seal knives with sterile blades and some with the D.C.C. logo. There were about a half-dozen blade style variants.

Dalton also made some clones of the original Miller/Ochs black knife but the giveaway of Dalton's work is the small ridge that divides the button recess.
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by espn77 »

Thanks Brian. I appreciate you sharing you knowledge.
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by outkast »

Since the post has been bumped any info on this piece.
No marking anywhere. Ron Miller, Charles Ochs, Reese Weiland ?
I've seen similar ones online but none with serrations.
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

wazu013 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:00 am This is an article from 2009. I hope it helps you out.

"Some here may know this info already,some wont,but this is a general detailed history of the how,and who about the infamous "Black Knife" hope you enjoy it.
Back in 1987, a custom maker named Ron Miller in Largo Florida,finally began building a prototype plunge lock auto he had been thinking about for several years.
He had hopes of selling the knife to US Army Special Forces Reserve troops stationed nearby in Homestead Fl.He etched Special Forces and the insignia of same onto the handle scales. A knife making friend of his suggested a set screw adjustment that solved known lock up troubles. The original knife bears only marginal resemblance to the now infamous "Black Knife". The original looks more like the Al Mar auto and Benchmade AFO than the later version.

By early 1988,the second generation of the knife, 25 in total, serial numbered (1001-1025)were completed.
The Green Beret logo was pantographed on side, but the words Special Forces were deleted.
Reserve members privately bought 17 of this group.,..
Here's the important part==the remaining eight knives went to custom maker Charlie Ochs on CONSIGNMENT.
That's right, contrary to what you here in shows and the knife community constantly- Charlie Ochs neither designed ,nor created the original Black Knife, it was Ron Miller.

**Now , I have to respect Mr Ochs for the fact that while he refined the knife, he has never once stated in public or print that it was HIS knife design originally. This is just another case of rumor & supposition becoming fact and history.**

Miller then (still in 88) assembled a group of 53 totally STERILE versions with now hollow ground blades and aluminum handles.
Ochs sold the majority of these knives for Miller, to fireman, cops, Marines and US Navy Pilots , all of whom had previously bought custom knives from him.

Here is where the ball game changes--- Ochs began to lobby for design changes to the original knife. Namely, a smoother more rounded handle, and what has become the easily recognized modern Black Knife- a drop point blade, with a center ridge and a false top edge,a lowered "port" cut into the handle to mask the button from accidental firing.(serrations weren't added until 1992)

From an engineering standpoint the knife was great, machined handles meant no need for liners, bolsters, or scales. a Phillips head screwdriver was all you needed for takedown and cleaning or repair. The button locked it open or closed, no liner lock, no back lock needed either.
The use of the constant pressure torsion spring was brilliant,no rebound problems, like typical kicker spring autos.

A firm in Michigan began making the parts ,they laser cut 1200 blanks of 440c, and a second firm ground the blades on automatic machines.
The vibratory system they used to polish the blades had the results of taking off the crisp grind lines , the blades were offered in 3 choices, bead blast, black, or bright.
The handles were CNC made in Florida, then sent off to yet another location to be anodized.
Geeze what it takes to produce a knife can seem like endless drudgery.

The Black Knife has at this point reached its final development at 3 3/4 in 440c drop point blade, with 5 1/2 in black CNC aluminum handles, 11/16 thick overall.

** As an experiment a few pieces were given high visibility orange finishes,and another four dozen( that would be 48 Dood-we know you hate hard work like adddin and substractin'
were given camo coloring with two shades of green. When it was found that black was the clear choice of buyers, all other options were dropped**

1989, suggestions are made to Ochs that he use his contacts in the SF community to market the knife ,.. sales picked up dramatically overnight it seems,as between 88-1990, over 1200 knives were shipped.
Near 90 % went private sale to workers at government agencies , DEA,Border Patrol, ATF, FBI, EOD Bomb Techs,

once this initial run was sold off, or nearly so, then a second consignment of 1400 was attempted - it had a fatal flaw however- they changed blade contractors at the last minute, and boy did it play hell.
You see ALL the blades , that's right 1400 of them, were far off spec.
Each and every knife had to be hand assembled and tweaked to function.(Sounds like exactly what happened to Mr Brad and his nice auto try)
The vibratory process is scrapped -so the crisp grind lines are evident, the bright polish option gone, only blast grey or black in these, the assembly is tighter and solid.
The Knives in this batch are actually BETTER made and more desirable to me that the predecessors as far as they all got special attention in building.

OK this is RUMOR CONTROL on the air: Contrary to Soldier of Fortune magazine, and every khaki clad glassy eyed wannabe you meet at the shows,young or old- There is absolutely NO truth to the knife issued as combat gear to CIA,or Marine Recon units. The ONE and ONLY US contract buy of these knives is the US Navy SEAL's.
According to DOD records in the Navy archives, a group of 5 knives (not 5000-FIVE) were sent to the SEAL's in 1989 for testing The SEALS were suitably impressed and placed an order for supplies on 6/17/91 for 5 more "Emergency CBR Suit Cutters " from Ochs Enterprises(Since changed to OX Enterprises)
CBR was created especially for the purchase and does not exist-Chemical ,Biological,Radiation suit cutter was used to avoid the sinister connotation of ordering Switchblade Knives, by a SEAL team.
The fact of a highly trained unit of the US military, taught to kill silently,bare handed,infiltrate with full auto silenced weapons, and usually used to seriously ruin a bad guys day and exit without its presence known,would be nervous about asking for a switchblade just puts me on the floor laughing.

**(from what I've found in the archives ,the final purchase order was placed by CDR James E Wardrobe ,Commanding Officer, Special Boat Unit 12, (Coronado) San Diego ,Ca on June 24 , 1991)**
Another reason for this term being used was the knives were ordered during the buildup for the first Gulf War in 91. Everyone thought the Iraqis would use the chem rocket warheads on us , so it was believed that the auto knife would free a man from the contaminated suit that much faster .
In reviews sent to Ochs, the SEAL's felt the knife should replace the Ka Bar MKIII, and the 440c blades held up well in salt water, also the plunger button worked ar a depth of 60 ft.
Pretty good selling point.
These knives were purchased for 100 ea, yup 1 Benjamin , not too bad a rate of inflation as I saw real one go for 150 in ATL this past year. Always wanted one of the crisp line ,black sterile ones myself, had one, but left it behind after an overseas trip with a buddy who needed it.

Unofficially quite a few went to Iraq for both wars.
SEAL team 4 took several personal purchase Black Knives into Iraq/91-93, all functioned with no problems.
Only breakage report was a civilian employee who decided to whack the knife as hard as he could spine side into a desk to "test the lock" and broke the coil spring out of its slot. Well I hope the owner "tested' his melon the same way.

The originals are sterile as I've pointed out, but the current made version has "MADE in USA" on the butt.
This was controversial at first , buyers who wanted the "look' wanted sterile ,no country of origin, I suppose for both the collector value, the bragging rights to a "SEAL" knife, and real warriors who didn't want marked equipment. But the real story is, too many companies have blatantly ripped off the design and sell them as "the Black Knife". So Charlie too Microsoft style steps to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Charlie also states a rule of thumb- NO knife that has the blade running entirely into the handle came from his shop .
The so called "Florida Group' knives were Ron an Charlie's baby.
There's also a group from Oregon copying the knife, as well as a fellow who has sold as least 8-10 THOUSAND of the knock offs over the years. At one point he had 3500 sets of handles in crates in his garage.
Most of the copies for some reason are about 3/4 to 1 in under the standard length of there real thing.
One especially seen one at shows is the shorter version with a parachute/SF style etch on the blade. Its a fake gang, stand clear.

How and why?- well first and foremost is the simplest reason anyone does anything, there's money to be made here.
Secondly?=Neither the design or its basic structure was EVER patented.
Remember these knives are Machined , so all it takes to make a tape ( a term used in 3 D laser measurement) is a working sample and VOILA! , you're in business.
Even the big boys saw the stacks of green pouring in and jumped onboard , producing autos with barely cosmetic changes but the same internals,.. think Boker, Benchmade, little known Barrel Industries, American Tactical, Microtech, Paragon, etc.

Production stopped in 1994 of the original knives,.. but the success of the rip off artist brought it back ( think Colt stopping the single action -then seeing a demand for it give rise to 13 companies ,Colt comes back to the table 10 years later and wipes the floor with them all)
Ron Miller passed on in 1995, ending the era of Black Knife it was thought.
Since then Charlie Ochs has taken on the mantle of having these produced in batches from the original parts manufacturer.
The modern Black Knife has a few design changes that distinguish it from its predecessor as follows:

A groove has been added down the center of each handle scale,
a pocket clip added to right rear handle,made of 304 stainless
the blade is marked "OX ENT.BLK-95" in two lines on left rear of blade (YEAR DATE changes with calendar year of manuf.)
He only made 1000 a year so far, in batches of 500.

Ochs as of two years ago, still did factory service work on the knives,You can still contact him and ask , if you have an original Black Knife with problems.
Back then he asked for the knife, and 5 bucks, yup 5 smackers and he fixed it.
No knocks please, unless you want a hammered pile of cr*p back in the mail

Ochs has several times said he plans to discontinue the straight blade ,and only produce the serrated 60/40 version as the demand for the knife LEO, as well as Military needs more tool and quick use blade than plain edge.


And now you know, ... the REST of the story. Hope you were at least entertained for a bit, if not enlightened at all


The Black Knife may not be to your particular tastes, but as an auto connoisseur and student of knife history , you should own at least a single example of the real thing."
wazu013 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:00 am This is an article from 2009. I hope it helps you out.

"Some here may know this info already,some wont,but this is a general detailed history of the how,and who about the infamous "Black Knife" hope you enjoy it.
Back in 1987, a custom maker named Ron Miller in Largo Florida,finally began building a prototype plunge lock auto he had been thinking about for several years.
He had hopes of selling the knife to US Army Special Forces Reserve troops stationed nearby in Homestead Fl.He etched Special Forces and the insignia of same onto the handle scales. A knife making friend of his suggested a set screw adjustment that solved known lock up troubles. The original knife bears only marginal resemblance to the now infamous "Black Knife". The original looks more like the Al Mar auto and Benchmade AFO than the later version.

By early 1988,the second generation of the knife, 25 in total, serial numbered (1001-1025)were completed.
The Green Beret logo was pantographed on side, but the words Special Forces were deleted.
Reserve members privately bought 17 of this group.,..
Here's the important part==the remaining eight knives went to custom maker Charlie Ochs on CONSIGNMENT.
That's right, contrary to what you here in shows and the knife community constantly- Charlie Ochs neither designed ,nor created the original Black Knife, it was Ron Miller.

**Now , I have to respect Mr Ochs for the fact that while he refined the knife, he has never once stated in public or print that it was HIS knife design originally. This is just another case of rumor & supposition becoming fact and history.**

Miller then (still in 88) assembled a group of 53 totally STERILE versions with now hollow ground blades and aluminum handles.
Ochs sold the majority of these knives for Miller, to fireman, cops, Marines and US Navy Pilots , all of whom had previously bought custom knives from him.

Here is where the ball game changes--- Ochs began to lobby for design changes to the original knife. Namely, a smoother more rounded handle, and what has become the easily recognized modern Black Knife- a drop point blade, with a center ridge and a false top edge,a lowered "port" cut into the handle to mask the button from accidental firing.(serrations weren't added until 1992)

From an engineering standpoint the knife was great, machined handles meant no need for liners, bolsters, or scales. a Phillips head screwdriver was all you needed for takedown and cleaning or repair. The button locked it open or closed, no liner lock, no back lock needed either.
The use of the constant pressure torsion spring was brilliant,no rebound problems, like typical kicker spring autos.

A firm in Michigan began making the parts ,they laser cut 1200 blanks of 440c, and a second firm ground the blades on automatic machines.
The vibratory system they used to polish the blades had the results of taking off the crisp grind lines , the blades were offered in 3 choices, bead blast, black, or bright.
The handles were CNC made in Florida, then sent off to yet another location to be anodized.
Geeze what it takes to produce a knife can seem like endless drudgery.

The Black Knife has at this point reached its final development at 3 3/4 in 440c drop point blade, with 5 1/2 in black CNC aluminum handles, 11/16 thick overall.

** As an experiment a few pieces were given high visibility orange finishes,and another four dozen( that would be 48 Dood-we know you hate hard work like adddin and substractin'
were given camo coloring with two shades of green. When it was found that black was the clear choice of buyers, all other options were dropped**

1989, suggestions are made to Ochs that he use his contacts in the SF community to market the knife ,.. sales picked up dramatically overnight it seems,as between 88-1990, over 1200 knives were shipped.
Near 90 % went private sale to workers at government agencies , DEA,Border Patrol, ATF, FBI, EOD Bomb Techs,

once this initial run was sold off, or nearly so, then a second consignment of 1400 was attempted - it had a fatal flaw however- they changed blade contractors at the last minute, and boy did it play hell.
You see ALL the blades , that's right 1400 of them, were far off spec.
Each and every knife had to be hand assembled and tweaked to function.(Sounds like exactly what happened to Mr Brad and his nice auto try)
The vibratory process is scrapped -so the crisp grind lines are evident, the bright polish option gone, only blast grey or black in these, the assembly is tighter and solid.
The Knives in this batch are actually BETTER made and more desirable to me that the predecessors as far as they all got special attention in building.

OK this is RUMOR CONTROL on the air: Contrary to Soldier of Fortune magazine, and every khaki clad glassy eyed wannabe you meet at the shows,young or old- There is absolutely NO truth to the knife issued as combat gear to CIA,or Marine Recon units. The ONE and ONLY US contract buy of these knives is the US Navy SEAL's.
According to DOD records in the Navy archives, a group of 5 knives (not 5000-FIVE) were sent to the SEAL's in 1989 for testing The SEALS were suitably impressed and placed an order for supplies on 6/17/91 for 5 more "Emergency CBR Suit Cutters " from Ochs Enterprises(Since changed to OX Enterprises)
CBR was created especially for the purchase and does not exist-Chemical ,Biological,Radiation suit cutter was used to avoid the sinister connotation of ordering Switchblade Knives, by a SEAL team.
The fact of a highly trained unit of the US military, taught to kill silently,bare handed,infiltrate with full auto silenced weapons, and usually used to seriously ruin a bad guys day and exit without its presence known,would be nervous about asking for a switchblade just puts me on the floor laughing.

**(from what I've found in the archives ,the final purchase order was placed by CDR James E Wardrobe ,Commanding Officer, Special Boat Unit 12, (Coronado) San Diego ,Ca on June 24 , 1991)**
Another reason for this term being used was the knives were ordered during the buildup for the first Gulf War in 91. Everyone thought the Iraqis would use the chem rocket warheads on us , so it was believed that the auto knife would free a man from the contaminated suit that much faster .
In reviews sent to Ochs, the SEAL's felt the knife should replace the Ka Bar MKIII, and the 440c blades held up well in salt water, also the plunger button worked ar a depth of 60 ft.
Pretty good selling point.
These knives were purchased for 100 ea, yup 1 Benjamin , not too bad a rate of inflation as I saw real one go for 150 in ATL this past year. Always wanted one of the crisp line ,black sterile ones myself, had one, but left it behind after an overseas trip with a buddy who needed it.

Unofficially quite a few went to Iraq for both wars.
SEAL team 4 took several personal purchase Black Knives into Iraq/91-93, all functioned with no problems.
Only breakage report was a civilian employee who decided to whack the knife as hard as he could spine side into a desk to "test the lock" and broke the coil spring out of its slot. Well I hope the owner "tested' his melon the same way.

The originals are sterile as I've pointed out, but the current made version has "MADE in USA" on the butt.
This was controversial at first , buyers who wanted the "look' wanted sterile ,no country of origin, I suppose for both the collector value, the bragging rights to a "SEAL" knife, and real warriors who didn't want marked equipment. But the real story is, too many companies have blatantly ripped off the design and sell them as "the Black Knife". So Charlie too Microsoft style steps to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Charlie also states a rule of thumb- NO knife that has the blade running entirely into the handle came from his shop .
The so called "Florida Group' knives were Ron an Charlie's baby.
There's also a group from Oregon copying the knife, as well as a fellow who has sold as least 8-10 THOUSAND of the knock offs over the years. At one point he had 3500 sets of handles in crates in his garage.
Most of the copies for some reason are about 3/4 to 1 in under the standard length of there real thing.
One especially seen one at shows is the shorter version with a parachute/SF style etch on the blade. Its a fake gang, stand clear.

How and why?- well first and foremost is the simplest reason anyone does anything, there's money to be made here.
Secondly?=Neither the design or its basic structure was EVER patented.
Remember these knives are Machined , so all it takes to make a tape ( a term used in 3 D laser measurement) is a working sample and VOILA! , you're in business.
Even the big boys saw the stacks of green pouring in and jumped onboard , producing autos with barely cosmetic changes but the same internals,.. think Boker, Benchmade, little known Barrel Industries, American Tactical, Microtech, Paragon, etc.

Production stopped in 1994 of the original knives,.. but the success of the rip off artist brought it back ( think Colt stopping the single action -then seeing a demand for it give rise to 13 companies ,Colt comes back to the table 10 years later and wipes the floor with them all)
Ron Miller passed on in 1995, ending the era of Black Knife it was thought.
Since then Charlie Ochs has taken on the mantle of having these produced in batches from the original parts manufacturer.
The modern Black Knife has a few design changes that distinguish it from its predecessor as follows:

A groove has been added down the center of each handle scale,
a pocket clip added to right rear handle,made of 304 stainless
the blade is marked "OX ENT.BLK-95" in two lines on left rear of blade (YEAR DATE changes with calendar year of manuf.)
He only made 1000 a year so far, in batches of 500.

Ochs as of two years ago, still did factory service work on the knives,You can still contact him and ask , if you have an original Black Knife with problems.
Back then he asked for the knife, and 5 bucks, yup 5 smackers and he fixed it.
No knocks please, unless you want a hammered pile of cr*p back in the mail

Ochs has several times said he plans to discontinue the straight blade ,and only produce the serrated 60/40 version as the demand for the knife LEO, as well as Military needs more tool and quick use blade than plain edge.


And now you know, ... the REST of the story. Hope you were at least entertained for a bit, if not enlightened at all


The Black Knife may not be to your particular tastes, but as an auto connoisseur and student of knife history , you should own at least a single example of the real thing."
wazu013 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:00 am This is an article from 2009. I hope it helps you out.

"Some here may know this info already,some wont,but this is a general detailed history of the how,and who about the infamous "Black Knife" hope you enjoy it.
Back in 1987, a custom maker named Ron Miller in Largo Florida,finally began building a prototype plunge lock auto he had been thinking about for several years.
He had hopes of selling the knife to US Army Special Forces Reserve troops stationed nearby in Homestead Fl.He etched Special Forces and the insignia of same onto the handle scales. A knife making friend of his suggested a set screw adjustment that solved known lock up troubles. The original knife bears only marginal resemblance to the now infamous "Black Knife". The original looks more like the Al Mar auto and Benchmade AFO than the later version.

By early 1988,the second generation of the knife, 25 in total, serial numbered (1001-1025)were completed.
The Green Beret logo was pantographed on side, but the words Special Forces were deleted.
Reserve members privately bought 17 of this group.,..
Here's the important part==the remaining eight knives went to custom maker Charlie Ochs on CONSIGNMENT.
That's right, contrary to what you here in shows and the knife community constantly- Charlie Ochs neither designed ,nor created the original Black Knife, it was Ron Miller.

**Now , I have to respect Mr Ochs for the fact that while he refined the knife, he has never once stated in public or print that it was HIS knife design originally. This is just another case of rumor & supposition becoming fact and history.**

Miller then (still in 88) assembled a group of 53 totally STERILE versions with now hollow ground blades and aluminum handles.
Ochs sold the majority of these knives for Miller, to fireman, cops, Marines and US Navy Pilots , all of whom had previously bought custom knives from him.

Here is where the ball game changes--- Ochs began to lobby for design changes to the original knife. Namely, a smoother more rounded handle, and what has become the easily recognized modern Black Knife- a drop point blade, with a center ridge and a false top edge,a lowered "port" cut into the handle to mask the button from accidental firing.(serrations weren't added until 1992)

From an engineering standpoint the knife was great, machined handles meant no need for liners, bolsters, or scales. a Phillips head screwdriver was all you needed for takedown and cleaning or repair. The button locked it open or closed, no liner lock, no back lock needed either.
The use of the constant pressure torsion spring was brilliant,no rebound problems, like typical kicker spring autos.

A firm in Michigan began making the parts ,they laser cut 1200 blanks of 440c, and a second firm ground the blades on automatic machines.
The vibratory system they used to polish the blades had the results of taking off the crisp grind lines , the blades were offered in 3 choices, bead blast, black, or bright.
The handles were CNC made in Florida, then sent off to yet another location to be anodized.
Geeze what it takes to produce a knife can seem like endless drudgery.

The Black Knife has at this point reached its final development at 3 3/4 in 440c drop point blade, with 5 1/2 in black CNC aluminum handles, 11/16 thick overall.

** As an experiment a few pieces were given high visibility orange finishes,and another four dozen( that would be 48 Dood-we know you hate hard work like adddin and substractin'
were given camo coloring with two shades of green. When it was found that black was the clear choice of buyers, all other options were dropped**

1989, suggestions are made to Ochs that he use his contacts in the SF community to market the knife ,.. sales picked up dramatically overnight it seems,as between 88-1990, over 1200 knives were shipped.
Near 90 % went private sale to workers at government agencies , DEA,Border Patrol, ATF, FBI, EOD Bomb Techs,

once this initial run was sold off, or nearly so, then a second consignment of 1400 was attempted - it had a fatal flaw however- they changed blade contractors at the last minute, and boy did it play hell.
You see ALL the blades , that's right 1400 of them, were far off spec.
Each and every knife had to be hand assembled and tweaked to function.(Sounds like exactly what happened to Mr Brad and his nice auto try)
The vibratory process is scrapped -so the crisp grind lines are evident, the bright polish option gone, only blast grey or black in these, the assembly is tighter and solid.
The Knives in this batch are actually BETTER made and more desirable to me that the predecessors as far as they all got special attention in building.

OK this is RUMOR CONTROL on the air: Contrary to Soldier of Fortune magazine, and every khaki clad glassy eyed wannabe you meet at the shows,young or old- There is absolutely NO truth to the knife issued as combat gear to CIA,or Marine Recon units. The ONE and ONLY US contract buy of these knives is the US Navy SEAL's.
According to DOD records in the Navy archives, a group of 5 knives (not 5000-FIVE) were sent to the SEAL's in 1989 for testing The SEALS were suitably impressed and placed an order for supplies on 6/17/91 for 5 more "Emergency CBR Suit Cutters " from Ochs Enterprises(Since changed to OX Enterprises)
CBR was created especially for the purchase and does not exist-Chemical ,Biological,Radiation suit cutter was used to avoid the sinister connotation of ordering Switchblade Knives, by a SEAL team.
The fact of a highly trained unit of the US military, taught to kill silently,bare handed,infiltrate with full auto silenced weapons, and usually used to seriously ruin a bad guys day and exit without its presence known,would be nervous about asking for a switchblade just puts me on the floor laughing.

**(from what I've found in the archives ,the final purchase order was placed by CDR James E Wardrobe ,Commanding Officer, Special Boat Unit 12, (Coronado) San Diego ,Ca on June 24 , 1991)**
Another reason for this term being used was the knives were ordered during the buildup for the first Gulf War in 91. Everyone thought the Iraqis would use the chem rocket warheads on us , so it was believed that the auto knife would free a man from the contaminated suit that much faster .
In reviews sent to Ochs, the SEAL's felt the knife should replace the Ka Bar MKIII, and the 440c blades held up well in salt water, also the plunger button worked ar a depth of 60 ft.
Pretty good selling point.
These knives were purchased for 100 ea, yup 1 Benjamin , not too bad a rate of inflation as I saw real one go for 150 in ATL this past year. Always wanted one of the crisp line ,black sterile ones myself, had one, but left it behind after an overseas trip with a buddy who needed it.

Unofficially quite a few went to Iraq for both wars.
SEAL team 4 took several personal purchase Black Knives into Iraq/91-93, all functioned with no problems.
Only breakage report was a civilian employee who decided to whack the knife as hard as he could spine side into a desk to "test the lock" and broke the coil spring out of its slot. Well I hope the owner "tested' his melon the same way.

The originals are sterile as I've pointed out, but the current made version has "MADE in USA" on the butt.
This was controversial at first , buyers who wanted the "look' wanted sterile ,no country of origin, I suppose for both the collector value, the bragging rights to a "SEAL" knife, and real warriors who didn't want marked equipment. But the real story is, too many companies have blatantly ripped off the design and sell them as "the Black Knife". So Charlie too Microsoft style steps to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Charlie also states a rule of thumb- NO knife that has the blade running entirely into the handle came from his shop .
The so called "Florida Group' knives were Ron an Charlie's baby.
There's also a group from Oregon copying the knife, as well as a fellow who has sold as least 8-10 THOUSAND of the knock offs over the years. At one point he had 3500 sets of handles in crates in his garage.
Most of the copies for some reason are about 3/4 to 1 in under the standard length of there real thing.
One especially seen one at shows is the shorter version with a parachute/SF style etch on the blade. Its a fake gang, stand clear.

How and why?- well first and foremost is the simplest reason anyone does anything, there's money to be made here.
Secondly?=Neither the design or its basic structure was EVER patented.
Remember these knives are Machined , so all it takes to make a tape ( a term used in 3 D laser measurement) is a working sample and VOILA! , you're in business.
Even the big boys saw the stacks of green pouring in and jumped onboard , producing autos with barely cosmetic changes but the same internals,.. think Boker, Benchmade, little known Barrel Industries, American Tactical, Microtech, Paragon, etc.

Production stopped in 1994 of the original knives,.. but the success of the rip off artist brought it back ( think Colt stopping the single action -then seeing a demand for it give rise to 13 companies ,Colt comes back to the table 10 years later and wipes the floor with them all)
Ron Miller passed on in 1995, ending the era of Black Knife it was thought.
Since then Charlie Ochs has taken on the mantle of having these produced in batches from the original parts manufacturer.
The modern Black Knife has a few design changes that distinguish it from its predecessor as follows:

A groove has been added down the center of each handle scale,
a pocket clip added to right rear handle,made of 304 stainless
the blade is marked "OX ENT.BLK-95" in two lines on left rear of blade (YEAR DATE changes with calendar year of manuf.)
He only made 1000 a year so far, in batches of 500.

Ochs as of two years ago, still did factory service work on the knives,You can still contact him and ask , if you have an original Black Knife with problems.
Back then he asked for the knife, and 5 bucks, yup 5 smackers and he fixed it.
No knocks please, unless you want a hammered pile of cr*p back in the mail

Ochs has several times said he plans to discontinue the straight blade ,and only produce the serrated 60/40 version as the demand for the knife LEO, as well as Military needs more tool and quick use blade than plain edge.


And now you know, ... the REST of the story. Hope you were at least entertained for a bit, if not enlightened at all


The Black Knife may not be to your particular tastes, but as an auto connoisseur and student of knife history , you should own at least a single example of the real thing."

What a great read! Thanks for all the info. I’ve been collecting a long time and just a couple months ago stumbled onto the Black Knife. Boy would I have loved to have gotten my hands on a few brand new for a Benjerman. I wish Mr. Ochs would do another run of them. Thanks for taking the time to write and inform us all, you definitely answered all the questions I had.
ErikJon
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

What a great read! Thanks for all the info. I’ve been collecting a long time and just a couple months ago stumbled onto the Black Knife. Boy would I have loved to have gotten my hands on a few brand new for a Benjerman. I wish Mr. Ochs would do another run of them. Thanks for taking the time to write and inform us all, you definitely answered all the questions I had.
TazmanTom18
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by TazmanTom18 »

Mr. Outcast, that is the original knife "produced" by Ron Miller , Charlie Ochs, and Reese Wieland. They did come serrated, most not marked. Two variations i know of, the first with one piece button and later with a two piece button. Charlie still has some parts for these. As of Gator show he had a couple of the new black knives available. OxForge.com. 727-536-3827. Largo, Fl.
PS, don't know why Reese Wieland was left out of the history of these knives. Hope this helps, Charlie has a gun/knife shop in Largo.
ErikJon
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

This was very interesting to read. I don’t know what it is about this knife but I’m very attracted to it. Possibly because I was in the Army for 10 years as an 11B and did 3 combat tours, 2 Iraq and one to Afghanistan for a total of 3 1/2 years deployed. I’ve had numerous autos, even had a couple issued unfortunately none were from Mr. Ochs. Do you know how long ago the Gator Show was? I did email Ox Enterprise a month ago when I first heard of the Black Knife asking if there was any available. Sadly to be informed there was none in stock and I would be advised when there would be. My fingers are crossed another production run will be soon. I’d sure love to get one from the man himself because I cannot afford to pay what the used ones are going for now that I am a 100% disabled combat veteran. Thank God I have a great wife or I’d have nothing at all. Do you know if there was any made with titanium handles? I read in a description where they said the handles were made out of titanium and read where another guy was asking if they were too. It would sure be nice if I was to run into a string of good luck and someone had a few of these stashed that wanted to to sell for a reasonable price. If you so happen to run into or know of someone I could get one could you please let me know i’d greatly appreciate it. Also I appreciate your info thank you. Wishing you well my friend and everyone else out there. Again thank you hope to hear from you soon.
TazmanTom18
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by TazmanTom18 »

I have one of the originals, as new, I'd sell. I have a well worn, not abused, serrated one I carried along time. My first "good" auto.
ErikJon
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

Hello TazmanTom18 that’s awesome what are you asking for it and could you please send me some photos. I can’t believe I missed this one back in the early 90’s. I was around 19 or 20 years old back then but I guess I wasn’t introduced to high end autos till 96 when I bought my first real high speed one at a gun and knife show it was a Brend/Woodard collaboration I think Walter told me it was the Model 1 auto for 300. Any way I don’t wanna bore you to death and scare you away.
TazmanTom18
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by TazmanTom18 »

I'm good, thanks. This was my first good auto, my EDC for several years. It is serrated,.
luckydog64
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by luckydog64 »

I have a couple of black colored knives with no markings that look similar to ones posted. They fire really hard. Counterfeit junk or something special?
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ErikJon
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

Oh those are sweet! I’m almost certain the top one is a baby Ox and the other well at first looked like a vintage Benchmade but closer look a couple other makers came to mind. Are you selling?
ErikJon
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

Man that bottom one could possibly be from Miller, Ochs or Reese the way that blade is ground looks like Mr Ochs’s handy work.
luckydog64
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Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by luckydog64 »

The bottom one does have a mark i forgot about. It is a parachute with a cougar looks like. You can barely see it on the blade. They aren't for sale but thanks anyway.
Earth First! We'll mine the other planets later.
ErikJon
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

I saw that. Where did you say you got these. If they are what I think they are that there was the beginning of the coil spring and plunge lock. It’s too bad greedy people copied his invention to make capital gain to me that is stealing. There will be people seeing these that will know better then me and know for sure. I’m sure if you wanted to sell them to me at the most 300 A piece if that. This will give you what’s the big ones go for

https://www.arizonacustomknives.com/kni ... s.html?p=4
ErikJon
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Re: The "black knife" Charles Ochs or Ron Miller?

Post by ErikJon »

The bottom one is a Rob Dalton
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