How sharp is sharp enough?

Fatstrat · Post by **Fatstrat** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:43 pm

I've always considered myself pretty much a failure at knife sharpening because I've never been able to get one sharp enough to shave. (IE: razor sharp). I can get them sharp enough to slice paper.
I just use old fashioned medium & fine grit stone. Then finish w/a Smiths 2 in 1 carbide/ceramic sharpener.
My father says a knife can be "too sharp" and that one should strive for a "working edge". How do you feel about that?
Finally, what method of knife sharpiening do you prefer? Thanks

useem · Post by **useem** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:47 pm

A razor edge on anything but a razor is not that usefull for general cutting, plus you run the risk of chipping the blade. At least thats been my experience.

JMO

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:06 pm

Any sharp edged instrument should be sharpened for the job at task. A 30 degree angle is great for chopping, I use 23 - 25 degree for some hunters, 20 degrees for a skinner or for a slicing knife, and a 15 - 17 degree angle for a fillet knife. A fillet knife will not last long chopping and at the same time a 30 degree angle will not give nice easily done fillets.

Note: All angles given are from the center out - on each side. These are what I use and find they work quite well for me. I always use a leather strop as the last step. A knife can be too sharp and as mentioned can be more easily chipped.

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:41 pm

if it will shave hair I'm happy, if it will not, If I can't make it shave I don't need it. JMHO. I use a ex lap diamond for rough work, refine that endge on a chrade honesteel and usually strop it a dozen or so licks to finish it off.

dewman · Post by **dewman** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:11 am

A knife TOO sharp you say? Well....yes, in a sense. Once, about 23 years ago, I was working for a construction company at an on-going job at a local hospital in California. There was a company that came around every week or so to sharpen the operating tools for the hospital and they told us if any of us carpenters had wood chisels or pocket knives we wanted sharpened, to bring them over and they'd sharpen them for free.

I had a Schrade 897 UH (Uncle Henry) I had carried since I was an apprentice carpenter. I took it over and asked if they would sharpen it for me. The guy asked "How sharp do you want it?" I thought this was a rather dumb question, so I told him..."I want it as sharp as you can get it!" He had kind of a funny grin on his face when I said that, then said to come back an hour or so later and it would be ready. When I went to pick it up, there was that funny grin again. Odd, I thought.

Trust me....a knife CAN be too sharp! That thing was absolutely the epitomy of "scary sharp"! I was afraid of it. I was scared to open it. It was WAY, WAY past dry shaving sharp. They actually examined all the tools they sharpened with microscopes and I have no idea of how many microns of sharpness this thing was, but yes....as far as I'm concerned, there is such a thing as TOO sharp!

Sqg1 · Post by **Sqg1** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:19 am

I don't know if it was too sharp or sharped at the wrong angle, but I have had the edge roll over on a really sharp case knife once.

justold52 · Post by **justold52** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:35 am

..."there was that funny grin again. Odd, I thought."..

I lived in WI. and fished a lot. I sharpened mine and others fillet knives.
I got the nick name of Dr. cuz I cleaned a fish like a Dr. used a scalp and fast. Most of my fishing friends gave their knives to me to sharpen.
Most loved the way they worked on fish and most of them cut then selves too. I learned from a butcher how to sharpen and use a knife. If you get a chance to watch a butcher take note how often he runs the knife down a knife steel to bring back the edge. Yes I tested them by dry shaving my arm to know when it was good.

Fatstrat · Post by **Fatstrat** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:01 am

So what kind of sharpening system would recomend for a beginner. Lansky maybe? Or a tri stone?

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:13 pm

Lansky or similar systems are great to learn on, eventually you will want to be using a stone, especially if you sharpen a lot of knives because they will be much faster to use in the long run. I learned on stones so that is what I use. The trick is to learn how to hold and control the knife so each stroke is the same. Takes practice. I don't know how many times I've heard that a knife won't hold an edge or that a knife is a real pain to sharpen. The problem is usually the guy behind the knife not holding the knife exactly the same on each stroke and not because of the steel. I do have a Lansky that was a gift and it is a good system that I recommend for beginners and sometimes I use. If you don't sharpen knives a lot, a Lansky or similar system will meet all your needs.

Fatstrat · Post by **Fatstrat** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:16 pm

Thanks!

justold52 · Post by **justold52** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:49 pm

Hukk said it better then I could.

I agree .

I to use a "Gatco" Easy-to-Follow Knife Sharpening kit some times.
I fell the angle is important. To go with the job of what you want to cut.
I also think you NEED a Steel Sharp Stick or Butcher's Rod...

After you sharpen a blade run it down on the steel (on both sides) to break off and set the teeth of the edge.

redferd · Post by **redferd** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:47 pm

I use natural stones, diamond stones, steels, and leather strops to get my knives sharp. Each knife seems different when it comes to getting it sharp. I like to carry a sharp knife with a "toothy" blade for cutting cardboard boxes. I also like to have a blade for removing splinters. I agree that the knife needs to be sharp for the job it has to do.

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:20 pm

Sqg1 wrote:I don't know if it was too sharp or sharped at the wrong angle, but I have had the edge roll over on a really sharp case knife once.

This is a common phenomenon, especially with kitchen & meat cutters knives. Most manufacturers of sharpening steels make a smooth steel, often called a packing house steel. This steel does not remove any metal from the knife, just rolls the edge back straight so it is usable.

This happens to knives of thinner steel that have a very thin & sharp edge, such as a slicing knife. This is especially true of the Granton style grind Forschner uses on some of their knives. http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details.asp?SKU=10929
A rolled edge usually doesn't need to be sharpened, (unless it is also chipped), just to have the edge rolled back into place. That is one of the reasons I like the old Crock Stick style sharpeners as they will roll the edge back while removing a minimum amount of metal, if they are the fine sticks. The ideal tool for dealing with this problem is the smooth or packing house steel.

After doing the sharpening for a cutlery store for about 10 years, & seeing a lot of people's attempts to sharpen, I am convinced that most lay people remove more metal than necessary when they sharpen. This is true of a number of chefs also. I sharpened knives for a number of restaurants and some meat cutters as well. As a group, meat cutters usually have better knives and take better care of them, IMO.

Dale

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:24 pm

A couple of inexpensive...but effective...things I've learned to do for my carry pieces.

I usually have a couple around me as I'm here on the computer. I like to strop them on the back of a small legal pad I keep nearby for notes. I do this before they really begin to dull, and I find it keeps them "Tuned Up" pretty well.

In fact, Ernie Emerson has a similar ditty on his website here ( please click on Knife Sharpening on the left ).....

http://www.emersonknives.com/Tact_index.html

This will take a little longer with D-2, or a "Super" steel...but it still has a positive effect IMO.

If I'm "Out and About" using a multiblade, ( also, I always try to leave one blade of a multiblade a little toothier than the other[s] ), but it begins to dull, I can always strop it on an automobile window to polish/straighten the edge back up a bit. About 22-25 degrees should help to "steel"...er..."GLASS" it up nicely.

Just as a little added info/fun.

Bill

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:10 pm

I have met folks that had bought knives with serrated edges because, some how they believed that they never needed to be sharpened.

They could not understand why bread was becoming tougher at the same time.

Well, they do need to be touched up from time to time like any cutting tool.

There are sites like Jantz and others that sell round and tapered stones just for serrated knives.

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:29 pm

sharp knives work better. i hand stoned all my knives til i got my first lansky system, including the serratted blade stone. then i used it exclusively for many years with great results, almost perfect edges that lasted for a long time of use. now i hand stone my carry knives but i still use the system on all my work knives. less inconsistancy with a mechanicaly induced edge. i strop them on an old razor strop bolted to my workbench. i have found that no matter what edge angle you need for a particular knife/job, if it's done properly, it will dry shave. i have a razor to shave with so my knives don't ever need a shaving profile. so no matter what you use to sharpen, practice consistancy.

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:32 pm

Yes sir Hukk,

That 10" bread knife on a Sharpmaker or a Dog Bone takes some kind of patience.

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:46 pm

El Lobo wrote:Yes sir Hukk,

That 10" bread knife on a Sharpmaker or a Dog Bone takes some kind of patience.

Yes, indeed. I have a bunch of round and tapered shaped Arkansas sones and a DMT brand that looks like a rat tail file. Not sure if it is worth $20 but the handle on it makes it easy to use.

justold52 · Post by **justold52** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:16 pm

El Lobo thanks I checked out the "THE EMERSON VIDEO VAULT"

That was KOOL....

jmays · Post by **jmays** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:44 pm

my dad always told me that you should sharpen a knife on a whetstone
at a 25 degree angle but i use a diamond hone at at a 10 degree angle because i whittle alot......i normally sharpen it untill i get a razors edge.
especially on my sodbuster knife.

Lummo · Post by **Lummo** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:58 am

I learned the basics of honing years ago from a book called "the Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening" - John Juranitch. Today, I use 3 stones - a very aggressive DMT Diasharp, a medium Arkansas stone, and a Belgian stone that forms a sort of paste on the surface when wet. This gives a knife a very nice edge indeed.

I don't go for TOO steep an angle on the finish edge - I like the blade to stay sharp for a while. The 2 exceptions to this are 2 knives I use in the kitchen, an Inuit Ulu and another knife I have a similar one sided edge on that I use for Sushi.

My favorite Pocket Knife is an Al Mar Eagle (an older one - wooden scales) with a bayonet type blade which doesn't lend itself to a very steep edge. In spite of this, it shaves hairs quite easily.

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:38 pm

How sharp is whats right for you. For those of you who test shaving your arm. Your going to cut yourself eventually. A knife accidentally sharpened beyond razor sharp is dangerous to perform that function with.
Use the finger nail test, set the blade on your thumbnail with only the weight of blade(important). Tip up to just a slightly more acute angle than blade angle. Push toward end of nail if sharp it will not move(it will dig in).

Check your blades before sharpening with a 10 to 20 power loop. Find the final edge of blade, determine angle and only sharpen that edge. When you sharpen as your Dad use to on probably an Arkansas stone with circular motion from botton to top of full length of blade. If your not certain of edge or true angle you are regrinding your blade angle.

Of course all of this is In my opinion only. You do what you gotta do.
Moss

jmays · Post by **jmays** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:47 pm

the arm test is really not what i do i usually use a diamond bench stone of a fine grit that way if i get the edge i want without the edge being too brittle