GEC GRADING SYSTEM** Here We Go Again !!!!!

[big monk]

SURE WISH GEC, ""WOULD NOT"" grade the high end knives (IVORY ) _________ puts the brakes on em' for me ____but I'll sure save a bunch of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

http://blog.tsaknives.com/2012/06/13/ma ... -next.aspx

[boggs]

I hear you loud and clear................

[2Dead]

I don't like the grading at all and usually prefer to buy knives without serial numbers (I like clean bolsters when I can get them). I was just thinking that some of the grading may not even make sense. With Elephant Ivory, the bark exterior is bound to have cracks or not be "prime" but it is rarer because there is less of that than the interior ivory. Same with Mammoth. The "C" designation is an unneeded black mark on what may be someone's perfect knife. They shouldn't tell a collector what they feel is good or not. If they don't think its good, they shouldn't release it.

[bonehead]

Its really unfortunate.

But IMO GEC is too small to have a real marketing Groupe. They are trying on their own and they will position themselves out of their own market. Big Mistake, Where is the Value or even percieved value for the customer??????? I do something about this Will have to wait and see BH

[chetr1200c]

from what i gather that mike latham of colknives.net has posted on his website. the grading system isn't for the qaulity of the scales but rather the sort of texture.

[boggs]

It's not what the scales look like that's our concern......it's the idea of a "subjective grading system" that has no industry merit to stand by plus placing the hideous letters in addition to serial number on the bolsters.

[big monk]

We can ""beat our gums"" all we want,on here and all the other forums,for that matter __everyone of us has an opinion of how we feel about this___ but when it comes down to it__GEC is going to do what they" think", is best for them ?????? ___ so far,we have a dealer,that won't sell the knives***,several big time collectors,that won't buy the knives **** graded inventory sitting on the shelf **** and GEC is expanding the grading system to other materials ??????______________Good Luck to all,with your decisions,as to what you want to do ____ I'm still gona' buy""ALL"" the ""GEC"" knives "'I Like""_____________and the "'GRADED KNIVES"" are not on my want list (JMHO)

[Earl]

Has anyone read/heard a positive comment ANYWHERE in regards to this "grading"?

[knifeswapper]

Have you ever said something, that you new as soon as someone else responded, it had come off wrong and not conveyed your intention very well? Sure you have.

So, let's give GEC the common courtesy that we all deserve in these situations. Let's try to understand their intentions. I have talked to Bill at length about this and tried to understand what he wanted to accomplish, and expressed my concerns over the issue and the perceptions and repercussions it may or may not have. Now I am not speaking for him and I'm sure he would be happy to speak to anyone that wanted to call and understand; but below are a few of my understandings.

Does it benefit them one bit to grade the character or even the quality of ivory if that were the case?
No. They are asking no difference in price from one class to the other.

So, why are they doing it?
Distributors, like collectors, have preferences and expectations. So how many distributors do you think never expressed a preference in the slabs of the premium ivory they were buying; my guess (and inside information) is a very small number. We either wanted creamy white or marked up ivory; not a lot of "I don't care" if a selection was to be had. Why do the distributors have a preference? Because their customers have a preference. Matter of fact, more people wanted bark usually which came marked up a bit more. So, the factory had already split the "bark" from the "interior" to make ordering easier for the distributors. So, after hearing further specification of preferences inside these classes, they felt it would make things easier to break it down between the pure creamy white slabs and the slabs that had natural inclusions in them. I get many ivory orders that state they want pure creamy for that classic look; but I also get orders from people that want some marking such that "it doesn't look like plastic". So instead of having to write down every distributors preference on their order, it made sense to just add another qualifier.

Agreed, I did not like the way it first come out. I didn't like the marking with a "C" as common versus prime. But after discussing it with them, it was obvious to me that the sole intention was to assist the collector in a pre-destined choice of the character of this premium collectible. I even recommended to them that the "C" would make more sense standing for character given my understanding of their intention.

So, given what the actual intention was in the first place, and clearing your mind of the other opinions that have shown up in other places; let's just look at it from another point of view. Everybody has their right to their opinion; and it even serves a purpose having it on a forum or other online resource. But when it becomes more of a call for embargo on an third party than just a simple stated preference; I think we all lose something.

For everyone that has ever bought a GEC ivory knife or seriously thought of buying one:

1) Did you have any preference between bark or interior?
2) For those that would choose interior, would you have a preference between pure creamy smooth and slabs with natural lines in them?

If everyone answers the same, it will not be respective of the requests I get each time a new line is released...

Now, if your distributor of choice is expected to assist you in getting your choice without breaking his business bank account on $180 - 400 knives; doesn't it make sense that he should be allowed a little more control over what shows up in the mail?

I was actually naively excited when they first announced the program, because if my customers preferences held true I would be getting the "C" class ivory almost exclusively at what I hoped would be a reduced price for the customer. Little did I know there was no price differential and that there would be those that misunderstood the move so publicly as to make the "C" a mark of leprosy. If not careful, any one of us could take to issue something and communicate our side of it so adamantly that we damaged the originator's ability to communicate true intent. If me and my wife act like we love a new dish she has made for supper, there is a much higher likelihood that our children will try (and like) it. But if I spit it across the table, it will probably not meet with favorable reviews from my kids either; if they even put it to their lips. Any parent knows that once your kids have a perception of something, reality plays little role in their thinking. Adults are, to a lesser degree, the same way if we only hear one side to a story. If you don't believe me just pay attention to postings on some of the more critical forums. You get a guy that hates a knife and tells everything he doesn't like about it - 10 people will fall in behind him stating what a travesty it is. You give the same knife to a guy with differing perceptions or expectations and he loves it and lauds the positive aspects of it and here will came 10 people to congratulate him on his find. We want to look at things from the point of view of our peers.

I disagree completely with the idea of grading any slabs on a quality scale and marking them respective to their grade. Mainly because nobody wants to pull out their knife roll and show off a sub-prime specimen. Some distributors even had to learn the hard way that you can't charge more for nicer stag, because then you are essentially grading it - and nobody wants your cheap stag for their collection. Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I learned a long time ago that we all have vastly differing tastes on stag, etc.

But I don't think we would be having these conversations if they had marked them "Interior Plain" and "Interior Character" on the tube instead of "P" and "C" on the bolster in the first place. Personally, I wish primitive bone was broke down by "Primitive Standard" and "Primitive Cracked" so I could limit my order of those with cracks to only the customers that like the cracks (you know who you are) - because I do not like the cracks. Before this issue arose, they sold every ivory they made - and they had bark & interior and smooth creamy & natural markings. Why did they sell them all? Because there was a buyer for all characteristics being presented - and this has not changed.

So, let's take a minute to re-evaluate the intention behind the move on its merits instead of someone else's interpretation and offer up solutions that would be a win-win between the consumer and the factory. I think most of us want GEC to succeed and I expect they want every GEC customer to by completely satisfied with their products. They need to provide the distributors and consumers with a way to further clarify the specific character of the ivory being sold; and we don't want a third party telling us what is appealing and what is not on the knife we will be rubbing. Somewhere is the middle ground?

[big monk]

""Quote""" Before this issue arose, they sold every ivory they made - and they had bark & interior and smooth creamy & natural markings. Why did they sell them all? Because there was a buyer for all characteristics being presented - and this has not changed.

I think most of us want GEC to succeed and I expect they want every GEC customer to be completely satisfied with their products. They need to provide the distributors and consumers with a way to further clarify the specific character of the ivory being sold; and we don't want a third party telling us what is appealing and what is not on the knife we will be rubbing. Somewhere is the middle ground?


I think this says it all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[knifeswapper]

Well it doesn't really say it "ALL". Because in the background I have customers not happy because they had to settle with the allotment I was sent, without the ability to specify, when they really wanted something with some markings and all I got into stock was solid white. Most distributors can get 2-3 ivory models in a run; and then those have to go to backup buyers because they don't match the expectations that the original requester put into place. If you ordered a corvette without the option of color and it came in pink; you might pass on it, but somebody would snatch it up. That don't mean YOU were happy with it, just that SOMEBODY was happy with it! That is the great thing about differing taste. They tried to resolve that issue and have been drug thru the mud over it.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't know the solution, I just know that I have been in the situation before and it causes you to want to throw your hands up and walk away.

[jerryd6818]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't know the solution, I just know that I have been in the situation before and it causes you to want to throw your hands up and walk away.

Ahh, the joys of working with the public. Abe Lincoln had it right. All you need to do is substitute 'please' for 'fool'.

[big monk]

http://blog.tsaknives.com/2012/06/18/th ... inues.aspx


My Last response to this ""endless"" issue and I borrow a "'QUOTE""

""I have long considered it one of GOD's greatest mercies,that the future is hidden from us. If it were not,life would be unbearable""__Eugene Forsey

[knifeswapper]

The text of the link....
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Had a link from AAPK forwarded to me this morning regarding the Ivory controversy and I can't let it go unanswered as I know some of the comments are directed toward me. And that's okay.

Let's address the basis for this whole grading fiasco. From all I've seen and heard, this is a solution looking for a problem!!! I can't relate one single time that I've heard someone say, wow, I sure wish Great Eastern would grade their Hippo Ivory or any other handle material. Or 'holy mackerel scooter, this grading system is the best idea I've seen yet!!'.

A number of us distributors were asked whether we thought it was a good idea to offer a grading system to the Hippo Ivory. I gave a resounding NO and from my conversations with Chris, I was left with the impression this was a general consensus of the distributors. From what I've read on this blog and comments from both customers and NON customers, this is not a popular concept with ANYONE other than Bill. After I raised the issue and a number of folks started agreeing it didn't make sense a couple of things happened.

Rather than charging the same price for P's and C's as they initially did, GEC put a slight premium price on the P's
When GEC found out there was a great distaste for the "Common" moniker, they decided to say it actually meant "Character"
With the change from Common to Character, the P's and C's are once again the same price

Regarding Distributors requesting only the best Ivory prior to the grading system, I'd encourage any and all to call Chris and ask her if I've ever requested only the best Ivory, Primitive bone or any other handle material. I have complained that some distributors seem to get the nicer stag and I guess maybe I should ask! Customers have told me that some distributors claim to only carry stag hand picked for them. That's not me!! Have I ever returned what I felt was substandard handle material, you bet. In fact, other than the rare occasion I have a specific request from a customer, I don't even request low serial numbers. I'd be willing to bet that any distributor wanting serial numbers above 20 and only the cracked primitive bone or ivory would have very little trouble talking Chris out of it. I also doubt you'll have much trouble just taking the C grade ivory rather than the Premiums. Don't think we need a grading system to handle that request.
The analogy comparing this grading system to serving up a new dish and spitting it out, leaving a bad impression on the kids. Not even close. This isn't a 'new dish'. This is serving up the same pie Mom's made for the last 5 years but now telling the kids the part of the pie with the unbroken crust is the premium piece and the piece with the broken crust has 'character'. Before that, everyone was really glad to just get a piece of pie, but now they're being told it's not the 'best' piece. See how that flies over the dinner table.

The idea that this helps to resolve the issue of making the allotment knives available to distributors alludes me. The grading system doesn't impact the number of knives available in any way! If anything, it further exacerbates the problem by taking a limited number of items and subdividing them further into 2 grades.

I'm so passionate about this issue because it bothers me that a perfectly good, highly collectible handle material is suddenly being presented as something less. I understand that wasn't the intent and I have no doubt it was done with the best of intentions, but it didn't work. There's nothing wrong with making a misstep and backing away from a decision. The ability/willingness to change and adapt is a highly respected management characteristic.

And offer up a solution for both the customer and GEC? Drop the grading system. Please read this......NO ONE ASKED FOR IT!!!!! IF you have a customer that wants the P and C designation, slap a label on the tube and engrave the letter on the bolster, offer to drop the price $10 and see how many 'takers' there are. Better yet, offer the same knives to TSA Knives at a $10 premium without the label and engraving and I'm back in the game!

Bottom line???? When I got the Hippo Ivory and found out about the grading system and the engraved bolster, I sent them back without even thinking about it. Recently I was offered graded Elephant Ivory and declined. Here's why. All I did was put my money where my mouth is. As I said above, this is a solution looking for a problem. I have always tried to be 100% honest with my customers and rarely a week goes by that someone doesn't ask, '...if I'm collecting for the long term with a hope of appreciation in value, what do you recommend...' Regarding the 'graded' knives, I know what my response is.

I'm open to listening to anyone that would like explain to me how and why they feel that 2-5-10 years down the line their Ivory handled "C" grade knife will be worth as much on the secondary market as an unmarked pre-graded Ivory or a "P" for that matter. Your gonna pay the same for it, maybe. If you don't have a problem with it, aren't concerned about potential future value, want a great looking EDC knife, go for it! My personal opinion and from comments from some long term collectors, this didn't do the collector any favors. And, if GEC starts grading the stag, I'm gonna have a big decision to make.
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Now, to separate my perception of the issue from those of another very well respected (and rightly so) distributor.

The context can be changed to make one or the other sound realistic or silly. So, no, before they tried it; I too never had someone say an ivory grading system would be great. But I have had customers request certain characteristics in their ivory, and so has every distributor.

Has any distributor requested "only the best" ivory (or any slabs)? No, because "the best" varies from person to person. Back before the "C" grade received the "scarlet letter" from online discussions, I would specifically ask most times not to get the solid creamy white slabs. Does Chris and Patty know the preferences of EVERY distributor - YES. See the difference in presentation?

I too get personally invested in a belief / perception / line of thought to the point that I do not relay the view from all directions in my opinion. But, I have learned over many years not to take someone else's opinion as the all seeing truth either. I always tell my kids to start out assuming that what they learned from another is true, but verify it themselves before giving it much credibility. How many times have you been stung telling something you heard as the truth, just to find out there are inaccuracies.

Personally, unless a customer requests a certain serial number I could care less; because the serialized and non-serialized are generally taken off the same tray in finishing. I guess if there are enough knives that they take days to all come thru, maybe the serialized are etched first; but it has very little to do with the order they are produced. And the reason the factory would be happy to sell the "C" knives now is because of the campaign waged against them.

The analogy was not comparing the new grading system to a new dish; the analogy was comparing a well respected public opinion blasting a decision to a new dish. Makes more sense in context. Any person that has a pulpit can take their opinion to the public in such a fashion and sway peoples own perceptions. Even if the public doesn't agree with the opinion, they have to respect the impact it will have on the market.

I don't see where it was implied to be a solution to the allotment strategy. But I guess if I knew that my customers wanted marked interior ivory and I knew I could not get any, I could cancel my order and allow others to have the creamy white for their customers. I don't tie up my money in them and the factory moves them to someone that can get them into an eager collectors hands.

Again, I can work with the system one way or another. But it simply boils down to a pulpit being used to force the factory off of their original decision. That is where it aggravates me. If you have an opinion, express it. But don't use your resources to completely halt the factory's ability to sale their product. They are very politically correct at GEC, but if someone misinterprets your policy or intention and costs your business sales damage; that is a serious situation.

So I think it is worth repeating. Move all pre-conceived notions from your mind and use your own judgement on the current position of GEC management. Is it beneficial to disseminate interior ivory from bark ivory? Then further, is it beneficial on interior ivory to disseminate that with pure creamy white slabs from those that have natural inclusions / cracks / depth? Keeping in mind that the factory does not imply that one would be preferred by collectors now or in the future on the merits nor will they charge different prices for the two qualifiers for their standard ivory production runs.

I'm not going to tell you where you stand on the issue, and will defend your right to garner it yourself.

[boggs]

Mike...


I have to agree with you..maybe it wasn't the best way to differentiate Ivory with the P and C..it would of been much more accepted as "Interior Smooth" (instead of Interior Plain) and "Interior Character" and left off the additional marking on the bolster...but if you need to differ the two on the knife itself adding the letter as part of the model number would of been much better. It's never to late to change the way they're bought out...better sooner than later....like next run sooner and not let this gone on any further because this thorn hurts.........

I should of mentioned ...I have no problem buying Ivory handled GEC knives..character.smooth,cracked,funky colors what have you....I just don't want to see that darn P and C on the bolster or that size were it stands out like a neon sign

[knifeswapper]

I agree. Perception is reality; and C started out being "Common" it will always be common now. Their qualifiers have to be put in a place where they can be designated at finishing. Put it in the name on the top of the tube or put a different back label on it. It doesn't bother anyone that there is a Burnt Stag, Natural Stag, Genuine Stag, and Red Stag - so why not a Interior Smooth Ivory and Interior Marked Ivory (or some such)? Given the crazy names they come up for some bones, etc.; they might could just label them "Bill's Choice Ivory" and "Chris's Choice Ivory"

A solution for that problem would not be that complicated; getting rid of the original misstep in labeling has proved quite contentious.

[big monk]

Mike...


I should of mentioned ...I have no problem buying Ivory handled GEC knives..character.smooth,cracked,funky colors what have you....I just don't want to see that darn P and C on the bolster or that size were it stands out like a neon sign

Jim_________ I Agree, 100% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IMBand]

Any chance this grading could be done using the blade etch. If there is a grading system it should be on the knife
and not on the tube imo. GEC has great art on thier tubes and I was thinking maybe an etch of an old weathered
tusk on the C knives and an etch of a complete pristine looking tusk on the P knives? Maybe not the best idea, but
it would get the letter off the bolster......

IM

[boggs]

Good idea about the etch,I might be wrong but the reason GEC went with the letters engraved is that they couldn't be removed and have someone misrepresenting an ivory knife

[bonehead]

Hello everyone

Just sell the knives. If GEC wants more $ for a particular shade,etc charge the dealer more so its reflected in the cost we as collectors pay.

DONE, stop getting so dang crazy about it, its makes no sense. IMO if it keeps up, it will turn me away as a customer period, just like a product and too many promotions. There is no way anyone can tell me its being done for the benefit of the consumer...... Sorry.

BIG MISTAKE GEC, wake up and change the game plan like it used to be... BH

[2Dead]

Thanks Mike for the further explanations. Given the requests you and others are receiving, I can see how distinguishing the characteristics makes it easier for everyone. In this case though, I'd have preferred adding the qualifiers to the name of the material rather than engraving the bolster. It seems like this was well intentioned, even if there were missteps, imho, along the way.