The Slipjoint Lottery

[coffeecup]

I don't buy lottery tickets: I figure if I want to waste my money I can save time and just throw it away. But I keep buying new knives, sight unseen, and having to return most of them. Like the lottery, I could have saved time (and aggravation) by just throwing my money away, hence the subject of this post. As of the first of August, I've finally managed to receive refunds for all the knives I returned before June 1st (and I haven't bought any new ones since that date).

In the past year I've received knives with cracked scales, blades that strike each other on closing, blades hitting liners, blades that hit the spring on closing, excessive play, etc. (My favorite was a backspring that broke while I was following the manufacturer's recommended procedure of opening and closing it to loosen up the action.) Of the new knives I've purchased in the past five years, I've returned for QC issues more than I've kept. The flip side of that is that the amount I've paid for return shipping and "restocking fees" in the past year alone exceeds the cost of any current factory folder I've seen.

Is this the way things have always been? While I'm sure some were made, I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about a bad name-brand knife made prior to the mid-1960s or so. By the '80s, quality from many makers had taken a dive but still most of them were decent knives. I don't recall seeing a really bad knife, QC wise, when I started buying knives in the late '70s. I don't recall ever seeing a "bad" knife in a hardware store. (Matter of fact, I don't recall seeing a manufacturer's defect on a knife until the first time I mail-ordered my first knife.)

Leaving aside the cheap stuff--the modern equivalent of the knives sold in gas stations and tourist traps: in name-brand knives of whatever origin, are there more defects and problems today than 50 years ago--or does the internet just make it seem so, because we hear about it?

And just as important, is it possible to actually win the slipjoint lottery? Is there a dealer who actually has a meaningful guarantee that the knife he ships is free of defects? I'm not talking about a "if you have any problems, send it back for a full refund" guarantee--at a minimum I mean "we've inspected this knife and guarantee there will be no defects, and if there are we will pay return shipping."

I don't mind paying a premium for a good knife, and I don't mind paying a premium for good service from a dealer, but I'm tired of paying for nothing more than the opportunity to examine knives that should never have left the factory.

Jim

[knife7knut]

Probably why I don't buy new knives on a regular basis.I remember back in the early 80's or thereabouts Case was having some really serious QC issues.KaBar wasn't very far behind either.Gerber and Browning(the USA models anyway)were pretty good as was Western with their 500 series knives.There were others but you get the idea.

I think one of the reasons was that Gerber and Western and Browning had a much lower output than Case or KaBar and likely as not took a bit more time to assemble them properly.I think it was also about this time that some of the Japanese makers started to come into their own.Hell;I can remember when Imperial and Colonial shell handled knives were considered throwaways and look how they are selling now.

Before that Japanese knives were considered like what Chinese knives are today and usually with good reason.I think Al Mar,Pete Gerber,and even Jim Parker did a lot to make that happen.Say what you will about Jim Parker but a lot of his early knives were really good quality and relatively inexpensive.

Now I think it is all about the bottom line and anyone who is producing quality cutlery has a price tag to go along with it.Just my opinion folks.

[Absintheur]

I don't know where you buy your knives but please tell us so we can avoid the dealer!

You sound snakebit worse than Mattie Ross. I buy about an equal amount of used and new and I have yet to receive a knife with a problem as severe as you describe. Sure I have gotten a Case or two with blades that didn't center perfectly, a S&M that showed minute gaps in the fit, Great Easterns that were dull as Aunt Tizzie's butter knives but nothing on the magnitude you describe. My last 3-4 new knives were all from A.G. Russel with one being a second and they were all wonderful as far as fit and function. Before that was a couple Cases from Shepard Hills I think and a few off Ebay.

Facts are however the old timers who spent 40-50 years putting knives together for companies like Case are retiring and the newer, younger folks don't have their skills. Machinery is also aging and tolerances are slipping due to that. The reason the higher end blades from overseas have such great fit and finish is due largely to state of the art CNC machines.

[chautauqua]

i had an uncle who sold cutlery from the late 1950s to early 80s,the main difference is a salesman used to hand deliver your merchandise to your place of business,most american brands were not individually boxed and could be more easily cked,he would still occasionally discount 1 or 2 of a pattern as they were cherry picked but with natural handle meterials and people not actually useing any just collecting we have basically all become to picky about many little things which are not really a big deal if you were buying it to use it

[knifeaholic]

i had an uncle who sold cutlery from the late 1950s to early 80s,the main difference is a salesman used to hand deliver your merchandise to your place of business,most american brands were not individually boxed and could be more easily cked,he would still occasionally discount 1 or 2 of a pattern as they were cherry picked but with natural handle meterials and people not actually useing any just collecting we have basically all become to picky about many little things which are not really a big deal if you were buying it to use it

Interesting...what company did he work for??

[NYRich]

I haven't been at this nearly as long as most of you guys and it's very helpful to know what should be considered a defect. Not the obvious stuff like broken scales, but things not fitting together properly. This seems to be far too common among the "better" brands.

Two of my Case mini-trappers show circular scratching patters on the tangs of both blades. I'm no expert, but am guessing that they are rubbing somewhere along the inside of the frame due to insufficient clearance. Both knives were ordered from the same Case master dealer (one of the big ones) several weeks apart. One has chestnut bone handles and the other has handles exclusive to the dealer.

None of my other case knives (including other mini-trappers) show this scratching so I'm assuming that it's not normal. Jim's lottery analogy seems very appropriate in this case (no pun intended) as the odds of my receiving two different examples of the same model with the same problem from the same dealer seem astronomical. I'm giving the dealer the benefit of the doubt that these weren't both returned to them for this problem and re-sold, which is why I'm not mentioning the name of the dealer.

I've used the knives for a few months and don't expect the dealer or Case to offer any remedy. I can't swear that they came out of the boxes this way but I can't swear that they didn't either. One thing that I'm going to do in the future is look over every new knife very carefully and not assume that they are perfect right out of the box.

Yesterday I ordered a couple of more mini trappers from another dealer and they should be arriving next week. It will be interesting to see if these come with (or develop) the same problem. Live and learn.

[coffeecup]

Thanks guys.

Knife7knut, I'd not considered the effect of volume of production. In your example of Case production in the early '80s, if volume of production were a factor, wouldn't we have seen higher-volume manufacturers like Camillus and Schrade making more knives with flaws? I can remember the QC issues from Case, but don't recall anything from Schrade or Camillus (or Buck, but I'm not sure where they fit into the scale of volume then); Western had some QC issues but that was after the Coleman takeover. I'll have to take another look at production numbers and see--thanks for the idea. I agree that quality will be influenced by price; none of the knives I returned cost less than $65, and the average was around $79. I haven't been messing around returning sodbusters!

Absintheur, if only it were just one dealer: then I could be sure that either the dealer was selling seconds or I'd done something to offend him. I've dealt with several dealers on this.

Chataqua, for the most part I'm a user. (One group of six knives was purchased as a lot--with the intention of getting them engraved as a "family knife" for my brothers and I--but they would have all been put to use.) On that level, I sort of look at knives as a sharp edge and a (preferably aesthetically-pleasing) ergonomic handle to hold the edge.

If the blade strikes the spring, the liners, or other blades, there will be flat spots in the edge, affecting sharpness/usability. If, when the blade is open, there is so much play that the blade tip can move 1/4" side to side or front to back, the ability to cut accurately will be affected. Cracks in the scales, rivets that stand high, etc will all effect how the knife is handled.

As you describe, if the knives were delivered to a retailer, most of these problems would have been caught with a quick inspection. With individual packaging, that inspection by the retailer isn't as quick--and that might be part of the problem today--but it didn't seem to be a problem for companies 30 years ago.

Rich, the circular patterns you describe are probably scratches caused by grit caught between the blade and liners; the softer metal of the liners holds the abrasive and scratches the harder metal of the blade. When you read of guys flushing the joints with oil and working the blade back and forth, what they are doing is removing any residual abrasives and polishing compound from the joints. It is a problem that occurs with all makers at one point or another, and may arise after a time due to the knife picking up a bit of grit while being pocket-carried. If you're going to carry and use the knife, I'd suggest following the joint-flushing routine followed by routine cleaning and maintenance. If not . . . I'm not sure what the hardcore collectors do--maybe never open the knife?--maybe they flush the joints too? In any case, I'll bet we can find a serious collector here who knows the expectations and can help you out.

Jim

[NYRich]

Jim,

Thanks for your explanation regarding the circular scratching. I'm certainly going to take your advice to "flush" the joint of any new knives.

This place is really a storehouse of information.

[knife7knut]

Thanks guys.

Knife7knut, I'd not considered the effect of volume of production. In your example of Case production in the early '80s, if volume of production were a factor, wouldn't we have seen higher-volume manufacturers like Camillus and Schrade making more knives with flaws? I can remember the QC issues from Case, but don't recall anything from Schrade or Camillus (or Buck, but I'm not sure where they fit into the scale of volume then); Western had some QC issues but that was after the Coleman takeover. I'll have to take another look at production numbers and see--thanks for the idea.

Jim

To answer your first question;I would suspect that both Schrade and Camillus had QC issues as well but at that point in time very few people were collecting those brands so it is possible that they were overlooked.
I recently acquired an unmarked Boy Scout knife(possibly the blade was lightly etched originally;it has been worked over a bit)that has one flaw that I recall was quite prevalent with these knives;that being the awl nicking the liner on closing due to a little too much crinking of the blade.I have probably 50 or so specimens of BS knives from various manufacturers and I would say that maybe 1/4 of them do the same thing.
As to the Case problem;there were many things that went wrong:Back springs with the incorrect temper and sticking up either when open or closed;difficulty in opening blades;shields falling off;the scraping of adjacent blades previously mentioned;and so on.And it wasn't just Case;I have several KaBars that are near impossible to open without resorting to assistance such as a coin or blade opener.Early English and German knives with half stops were notorious for this.
For the money that is being asked for knives today there should be no question about the quality and if one slips through the inspectors,then the selling dealer should make it right.

[coffeecup]

From '75-'95, for every Case I saw, I saw probably 15-20 Camillus and Schrade knives. I never saw or heard of those (when new) having an issue that would affect function, other than your example of the awls/punches. That seems to be an across-the-board, all-makers issue. I'd say your estimate of 25% of those hitting the liner or other blades is about right, at least for post-WWII production.

On a QC bright spot, this week I got to see 75 knives from the same maker. These were purchased by a friend with the plan of having the handle laser-etched with his business logo and giving them away to customers. Of 25 Boker yellow-bone stockmans and 50 Boker Plus locking sodbusters, there were no problems. Not just "no problems affecting function," but no problems.

If Boker can do that--in 2 factories, on 2 continents--it would seem that other companies can do better.

[Elvis]

This falls under the "For What It's Worth" catagory, but I recently found out that if you have a newly purchased (New in Box) Case Knife with a defect, you can call Case and they will send you a shipping label to return it at their expense.

[coffeecup]

That would be a step towards not forcing the consumer to pay for returning their defects. Where did you get the information?

According to their webpage,

If you believe your Case knife has a manufacturing defect, mail your knife along with a written explanation of the problem to: W.R. Case & Sons Cutlery Co., Repairs Department, 50 Owens Way, Bradford, PA 16701. We recommend you choose a trackable shipping option and insure your package.