QUEEN CUTLERY CLOSES TITUSVILLE FACILITY

[Quick Steel]

There is probably a number of factors at play here. I do wonder if their emphasis on very small runs did not contribute to the problem. Quite a few of Queens knives, certainly in the S&M line, were often limited to around 25 pieces, sometimes fewer sometimes a bit more. I mentioned this somewhere previously but about 2000 I read in a knife book the author's opinion that to generate interest in a knife requires finding the sweet spot in its production numbers. The writer held that 400 to 500 pieces were necessary to achieve sufficient distribution and therefore awareness and interest in the product. Just wondering.

[knifeaholic]

There is probably a number of factors at play here. I do wonder if their emphasis on very small runs did not contribute to the problem. Quite a few of Queens knives, certainly in the S&M line, were often limited to around 25 pieces, sometimes fewer sometimes a bit more. I mentioned this somewhere previously but about 2000 I read in a knife book the author's opinion that to generate interest in a knife requires finding the sweet spot in its production numbers. The writer held that 400 to 500 pieces were necessary to achieve sufficient distribution and therefore awareness and interest in the product. Just wondering.

Possibly...but isn't GEC's business model to do VERY short runs of everything, like no more than 35 of each pattern/handle combination? When Queen started offering these short runs, I thought maybe that they were following GEC's lead.

[garddogg56]

Ashame another American company down the tubes

[bdev]

Is the new Maher & Grosh line made by Queen or GEC?

[Rookie]

Okay so I have a question about Queen/Schatt & Morgan knives. Has this ever happened in the past for this company or is this the first time this has happened to them?
____________
Mike

First time I am aware of in the history of the company.

There was a rumor in about 1985 that Queen was closing up shop - the way it was presented to me (by someone who would know) was that they were actually in the process of finishing up a few orders of club knives then closing up. At that time, Queen was still owned by Servotronics. Servotronics IIRC was/is a very small company themselves. The early 80's recession was very hard on knife companies.

Of course they did not close, and in fact went on to produce some exceptional knives, including the Winchesters, Case Classics, Schatt & Morgan reproductions, etc.

My guess is that the big problem for companies like Queen and GEC, is that there really is no "training ground" for the skilled labor required for their old-school manufacturing processes. Young people can learn how to set up and operate a CNC machine at a trade school, but where do you learn how to pin together and haft a traditional pocketknife? Given that the old-school traditional knife industry is so tiny, it must be very difficult to attract young talent to maintain and expand the labor force. There is just no critical mass there.

I know in late 1981, they had actually filled out all paperwork to file for bankruptcy, and then they landed the NKCA 1982 club knife order which saved them from having to file. My grandfather was the sales manager at that time, and he said everyone in the factory personally came to shake his hand and thank him for his work to help land that big order.

There is probably a number of factors at play here.

There definitely are more factors here than what the public knows. I'm not going to mention specific things that I know about here, but I'll say that the Daniels were put into a tough position by no fault of their own, but they were left to take the blame and clean up the mess.

[peanut740]

The folding hunters were made by Queen and all the others by GEC.

[ken98k]

So who's left? Case & GEC? Is that it?

____________
Mike

Utica, and Bear MGC

Ken

Onterio, Kabar,
Actually there are several dozen american knife companies.

[SteelMyHeart85420]

So who's left? Case & GEC? Is that it?

____________
Mike

Utica, and Bear MGC

Ken

I have never seen a new Utica knife for sale, who distributes those?

[treefarmer]

There are new USA made Utica pocket knives for sale on the internet. Several distributors offer them.
Treefarmer

[Mumbleypeg]

I have never seen a new Utica knife for sale, who distributes those?

Probably their best known brand is Kutmaster. http://www.kutmaster.com/ Sold on Amazon, SMKW, several other places. They also make pocket knives under the Utica brand, and they do a lot of contract and private labels like Moore Maker. Good knives, not too expensive either!

Ken

[QTCut5]

Is Colonel Coon a Queen-made brand?

~Q~

Edit: Yes, "The more recent Colonel Coon knives...come out of the Queen factory under liscence (sic) by SMKW."

http://www.colonelcoon.net/index.php?nav=articles&id=1

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

Running a business is very, very hard. Running a manufacturing business is even harder, and running a manufacturing business in the USA in 2018 is darn near impossible.

I work for a company that designs and assembles a product in the USA. All of our components are manufactured in China, then the product is assembled, tested and packaged in the USA. So, it's all "light manufacturing" - no heavy presses, forging, welding or chemicals. The assemblers don't even have to use a soldering iron - all the electronic components are fully populated on the boards in China, so all they have to do is screw it all together and plug in the cables. The devices also sell for a couple of thousand dollars each.

10 years ago, the company was in trouble and almost folded. The profit margin was too low to cover all the costs, but they couldn't raise the price to the dealers because of stiff competition from lower cost (and lower quality) overseas products from our competitors.

The company took a huge chance. They began selling direct to end customers and competed directly with the dealers. Since they are the manufacturer, they could sell for the same or less than the dealers were selling the competing products AND they could do it at an increase in their own profit margin. The dealers were, of course, NOT happy about this new business model. Many of the dealers stopped buying. We were a pariah in the industry - hate mail flooded into the trade magazines calling us every name in the book. However, what the dealers found out was that the consumers actually preferred our product. If they couldn't buy our product from the dealer, then they found somewhere else to buy it rather than buying the lower quality product from our former dealers. It took several years, but many of the dealers came back, and since we had grown and were now a much healthier company, we could offer the dealers better prices and work cooperatively with them instead of always being direct competitors. There were some customers that were better served by us, and other customers better served by a local dealer.

We are now the #1 producer in our little niche and growing like gang-busters.

So - what's my point? I guess my point is that businesses that do not change often do not survive. Just running a business is already a huge risk, and you often have to continue to take on new risk just to prevent being pushed out of the way by other people that are willing to take more risks than you. Some of the risks you take *will* cause you to fail, but doing nothing new is an almost certain road to failure.

As traditional knife collectors, we value the old ways - but just like the local dealers in my story, we need to be careful to recognize that sometimes you have to set aside your desire to keep things the way they were in the past in order to ensure you will have a future.

/steps off soapbox

[Quick Steel]

Peanut and Q, The current Col. coons are now being made by Bear & Sons. So far I am only aware of walnut handles being used on all of these.
Bear & Sons informed me that they are unaware of anyone else now making Col Coons.


There may still be some of the Queen made Col. Coons at dealers or ebay etc.

[bestgear]

Running a business is very, very hard. Running a manufacturing business is even harder, and running a manufacturing business in the USA in 2018 is darn near impossible.

This is so true. The word entrepreneur comes from the 13th century French verb entreprendre, meaning "to do something". By the 16th century, the noun entrepreneur, had emerged to refer to someone who undertakes a business venture. The first academic usage of the term was by economist Richard Cantillon in 1730. For Cantillion, the bearing of risk - "engaging in business without an assurance of the profits that will be derived" is the distinguishing feature of an entrepreneur. The term entrepreneur was further popularized in 1848 by economist John Stuart Mill used the term in his very popular book, Principles of Political Economy. To Mill, the distinguishing feature of an entrepreneur was that they assume both the risk and the management of a business.

I am sure the Daniels family struggled with this decision for many months if not years and could have closed the doors before the holidays but chose to keep the workforce engaged and paid. IMHO, they are brave entrepreneurs for the risks they took on at a time when others wouldn't. My hope is that they can find their way forward and emerge as a stronger entity in the cutlery business.

[carrmillus]

....I have a couple of mint Queen's and a couple of mint Schatt & Morgan's I was about to try and sell, but I think i'll wait and see how this turns out????............... ....................

[steve99f]

Depressing to hear this news. I hope they figure it out and can come back.

[Old Hunter]

Hate to see another USA pocketknife company going under. Canal Street last year, Queen this year, Buck is about to discontinue most of their 300 series pocketknives (but their big business is Folding Hunters and fixed blades plus the new Remington contract). Looks like Case and Bear can make moderately priced pocketknives in quantity and stay in business and GEC has been able to dominate the higher end, short run market. I think it is much harder to make a good pocketknife than a good fixed blade or modern style single blade knife and the demand for traditional pocketknives to use is miniscule. Hope Queen can manage a comeback. OH

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Buck is about to discontinue most of their 300 series pocketknives.

Really? That's a shame to hear. I hope they will keep the 301.

I guess most people just don't care about old fashioned pocket knives anymore. It seems like most of the people that need a knife want modern OHO's, or one of those replaceable blade box cutter folders with a pocket clip.

[Old Hunter]

I sell building materials for a living - the VAST number of men I see building houses and commercial buildings have modern flip knives (tactical knives) that clip to their pockets. They like them because they are stoutly made and can be opened with one hand. Most of my dealers carry off-shore built models that sell for $20 or less. There a very, very few building material dealers that stock slip-joint pocketknives any longer, whether USA made or offshore. OH
Ps Buck plans to keep producing the 301 and 303 - back to the ones they started with in the 1960s.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Bruce that sounds about right.

I am a plumber, and frequently work alongside many other trades, a few commercial businesses that have guys out in a shop making things and of course we go to plenty of hardware and supply stores as part of the trade, so I see many of the kind of people who need and carry a knife (OK is not shy about such things). The vast majority of what knife I see is of the box cutter variety, hands down. Most everything else is a modern clipped OHO or learherman. Switchblades have also become popular since they can be legally carried as of a few years ago.

I did meet a guy about my age that carried his grandfathers old case 6347, and he liked the old knives. Not enough of a nut to be on a forum talking about them all the time, but he certainly preferred them and had more than one

[Delmar Morgan]

Now I know why that Queen Steel #22 barlow that I sent them back in September hasn't got back to me.

[Tsar Bomba]

Possibly...but isn't GEC's business model to do VERY short runs of everything, like no more than 35 of each pattern/handle combination? When Queen started offering these short runs, I thought maybe that they were following GEC's lead.

With the number of 15s (non-Barlows), 18s, 35s, 66s, 78s, 81s and other patterns still available at dealers, I don't think they're short-running every pattern or combo by any means. I sometimes wonder if the secondary market price inflation does not properly represent the average demand (again, short of Barlows, sunfish, or other highly-sought patterns) which means GEC is going to find itself in an inflating bubble soon.

Let's hope that's not the case (no pun intended, Steve ).

I know in late 1981, they had actually filled out all paperwork to file for bankruptcy, and then they landed the NKCA 1982 club knife order which saved them from having to file.

1981, no? The 1982 club knife was a stag Schrade trapper. This is one of my 1981 NKCA Queen cigars - note the tang stamp and blade etch:

Now I know why that Queen Steel #22 barlow that I sent them back in September hasn't got back to me.

I'm wondering what to do now with a Robeson-branded #69 clip Barlow (with a reasonable approximation of the old Robeson strawberry bone) that came from the factory with moderate blade wobble. Very disappointing, but now it seems I'm too late to get it fixed by the factory... I'm sorry to hear that you may have lost your #22. The old offset-bolster Barlows are experiencing price creep on the secondary market which tells me sellers are starting to run out of good examples. I'm a big fan of that design.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Tony, blade wobble can easily be remedied by yourself. I don't bother sending knives in for that. You just have to be careful not to go too tight.

[Rookie]

1981, no? The 1982 club knife was a stag Schrade trapper. This is one of my 1981 NKCA Queen cigars - note the tang stamp and blade etch:

Sorry, yes. I had the wrong year, it was the 1981 cigar. My grandfather and the master cutler of Queen had 1 prototype piece made, and then 19 samples made. He met with the NKCA board, and gave each member one of the 19 pieces with the intention that they could take them out and show people at shows and gather interest in them. Some of the board members, and all the other manufacturer salesman, accused him of trying to bribe them into choosing his knife design. But things worked out and they landed the order.

[knifeaholic]

This is based on a post I did on this topic on another forum...about a possible path forward for Queen.

Even before the announcement of the Daniels family buying Queen, I speculated in my own mind that the most logical course of events would be for GEC (which was then starting to enjoy great success) to purchase Queen (which even at that time was in the doldrums). Two small companies, both in the same small town, both in essentially the same market segment.

Maybe that could now happen. Again, pure speculation about what MIGHT be the best path forward.

GEC clearly has the proper management and QC, and they have a solid customer base, with a great online marketing presence. Several private label customers.

Queen has some skilled employees, equipment. Tooling for many unique patterns, several important cutlery trademarks. Queen has the experience of working with a wide variety of modern blade steels. At least one private label customer (Moore Maker).

The advantages would be, rather than two similar companies vying for limited skilled employees and a share of a limited market, all would be under one roof, including shared equipment and marketing resources.

Whether it would make more sense for a combined company to move into the old Schatt/Queen factory or into the newer GEC facility, I have no idea. Did the limitations of working in a very old building affect Queen's ability to compete?

Success stories can still happen in the cutlery industry. Here in Massachusetts, we had Lamson & Goodnow, a manufacturer of kitchen knives and tools. Depending on who you ask, they were either the oldest or the second oldest cutlery manufacturer in the US. Founded 1837.

They offered a nice line of kitchen cutlery (all of my kitchen knives are Lamson & Goodnow forged knives made within the past 20 years). They went through several ownership changes in recent years, and eventually went into bankruptcy a few years ago. One of their big issues, per the plant managers, was that the very old brick "mill" style buildings that housed the factory caused significant production bottlenecks. This was even though they did have modern manufacturing equipment.

Anyway, they emerged from bankruptcy with a new owner, and were able to move into a new modern low-rise manufacturing plant in Westfield, MA.

The quality of the forged kitchen knives now being made by Lamson in the Westfield plant is awesome, easily a better level of fit, finish, and blade geometry, based on the examples that I have seen. And I believe that they were able to lower their prices significantly as well (forged kitchen knives are NOT cheap to begin with).

And this success story happened in a state with high labor and regulatory costs. In a market for a very basic product (kitchen cutlery) that is completely supported by the "user" market, not any "collector" market.