Parker & Field (Prussia) Serpentine Whittler

[wlf]

*The proper term is patent stag, it's a misnomer brought about by what you've always heard. I expect it is horn, as bone and antler doesn't sound feasible.

*Edit. I DON'T THINK IT'S HORN NOW. PATENT STAG SPOKE OF IN THE TREASURY DEPT. ARTICLE MAY JUST BE JIGGED BONE.? AND IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE HORN AFTER THE HOT PIN TEST.

This Wostenholm is stag:

[wlf]

This Wostenholm is patent stag:

[kootenay joe]

I cannot see 'patent stag' as being made from horn. Horn can begin to 'delaminate' and loose flat flakes on the horn surface. It also gets eaten by beetles. I have never seen one of these handles with flakes on surface or beetle holes whereas both of these are frequently seen in known horn handles.
kj

[gsmith7158]

I've noticed in the Robert Mayes book "The Knife Album" a lot of Empire patterns were available in Patent Stag. I've never seen any Empires with those handles . I couldn't tell you exactly what patent stag means.

[LongBlade]

I think we discussed this before but not sure what thread in terms of these handles and "patent stag" - in reference to it smiling-knife posted this page from the 1840 "The Penny Magazine" - note the discussion of heating horn and pressing it into molds starting with last sentence of left column and continue reading - personally given this info I think it is horn that is pressed to resemble stag... I also have a IXL Wostenholm whittler with "patent stag" though the pattern is abit different - and it no doubt looks like a natural material pressed in a mold to obtain the stag-like pattern (photo below - note the dye is worn away from edge and the material is no doubt a hard natural material - as an aside: despite the handles on this knife the blades are in excellent condition ... Anyway KJ's point about beetle damage in these handles is a good one - This is just speculation on my part but perhaps pressing the horn while heated makes it impervious to the beetle or since these are always dyed that the chemicals in the dye act as a deterrent ...

[Miller Bro's]

Quote: "All the examples I have and have seen are natural stag."
I take this to mean that the Parker & Field on page 1 and the Wostenholm above have handles made from antler of a member of the deer family.
While i do not doubt this i have not seen an antler with this texture but all antler i have seen is North American. Finding an antler or piece of, with the same surface texture would be conclusive and perhaps lead to an ID of the deer species.
kj

The English had the best stag from all around the world at their disposal.

Here's a piece of deer antler, old stuff, I got from a friend in England to me it looks very similar if not the same as what is being called pressed/patent stag. YMMV

[LongBlade]

Thanks for posting that stag horn Dimitri ... now that certainly adds some food for thought given the pattern on the horn... as you said YMMV - I still look at the handles on the knives posted above and there just seems to be something about the handle patterns that just lack a natural "look" or "pattern to me - maybe its just me.. I don't doubt the stag you posted was used for knives - but it has different natural inconsistencies in the pattern that I am just not seeing on some examples above.. . maybe the fact that they were dyed in a certain way ... certainly the old article that smiling-knife posted stated horn was heated and pressed into molds though it didn't note patterned into something called patent stag... indeed the handles on all these knives above are no doubt different than the gnarly stag which we often see - in the end perhaps there were both a natural stag like that in Dimitri's post and than those pressed from a natural horn & called patent stag - nonetheless no doubt interesting and all good discussion ...

[gsmith7158]

Well that deer antler certainly throws the scale back to the natural side of the argument for me. As Roland stated it would be nice to determine the species of deer that came from. Another thing that I find odd is why we haven't seen some of these molds that were used to press the horn. Surely they were made of metal and some would have survived.

[wlf]

Great conversation. Why didn't US companies import such ,or why has no one shown an example on a US manufactured knife? This material is kinda translucent under the facade.


https://books.google.com/books?id=9OMWA ... es&f=false

[kootenay joe]

The document linked to speaks of pieces of horn cut to size and made to have a rough texture to resemble "deer horn" and that this is called "patent stag". The words "deer horn" is out of place in an official document because it is not horn which is modified hair. Deer antler is modified bone in origin.
This now seems conclusive to me despite my earlier post about delaminating and beetle feeding.
wlf is a google-foo master to find such obscure references.
Henckels also called some of their handles "patent stag" but in this case it is bone made to sort of look like stag.
kj

[wlf]

Roland ,I've studied about this for years and still am not totally convinced of all my own beliefs, because there is no consensus. I've posted that Treasury decision before.Here is the link to the other original ruling, which makes it a little ambiguous to me ??:

https://books.google.com/books?id=NuY_A ... 83&f=false

And your knife may be real stag, I'm not the forensic expert with pictures. I'm better knife in hand.

The mold makers had to be quite skilled artisans and I don't expect they pressed the material ( horn we supposed ?) in little handle pieces, but in larger economy sizes and then sized these larger pieces to individual handle patterns.

[kootenay joe]

This could be solved with current technology. A piece of this handle material could be sent to a laboratory associated with wildlife for chemical analysis. Horn, antler and bone all have different 'chemical profiles'. Likely there is no DNA in this material but if there was this would conclusively give the species of animal from which it came.
The U.S. Federal Department of Wildlife has extensive laboratory facilities.
kj

[wlf]

This could be solved with current technology. A piece of this handle material could be sent to a laboratory associated with wildlife for chemical analysis. Horn, antler and bone all have different 'chemical profiles'. Likely there is no DNA in this material but if there was this would conclusively give the species of animal from which it came.
The U.S. Federal Department of Wildlife has extensive laboratory facilities.
kj

Yes, yes.
Exactly what I've continued to campaign for. I haven't found the right person to help me.

[gsmith7158]

Here's an explanation of horn pressing from The Edinburgh Encyclopedia
those of a flute. (e) HORN, CAPE. See Fuego, vol.x. p. 24, col. 2. HORN-PREssing, is the art of moulding or forming toys and various articles in horn or tortoise-shell. These animal substances are capable of being so soften ed by the application of a moderate heat, that they can be moulded by pressure into any required shape, and the surface may be imprinted with any design in the sharpest and most delicate relief. Another valuable property is, that pieces may be made to adhere firmly together without any cement. In the article BUttoN Making, we have already given a description of the me thod of pressing horn buttons, by means of iron moulds and astrong vice. The same machine, and similar moulds, are used for knife-handles or other simple articles; but for making hollow articles, such as snuff-boxes, tooth ick cases, powder-flasks, tubes of opera-glasses, ink horns, &c. a screw-press is used. The process is extreme ly simple: The horn or tortoise-shell is boiled in water until it becomes softened, and is then put into moulds of iron or brass, made in two or more pieces, and with cavi ties between them to correspond with the article which is to be fabricated, and, with all its intended ornaments, engraved in the interior surface of the mould. This mould being made hot, the horn or shell is put between its two halves, and the mould being put in a small screw-press, the halves are forced together to imprint the horn, and press it into the cavity of the mould. If the article has any considerable relief, this cannot be done at one heat, and therefore the press, with the moulds in it, is put into a copper, and boiled still longer: it is then taken out, and, by a lever applied to the screw, it is screwed tighter, so as at length to obtain the impression desired. When a single piece of horn or tortoise-shell is not sufficiently large to fill the mould, two or more pieces are put together: they are cut to fit to each other with a proper degree of overlap, and when sufficiently softened by boiling in water, the sur faces are forcibly pressed together, and they will thus be united as firmly as if they were originally in one piece. The screw-press employed for this business is very simple, being only an iron frame, with a screw. through the top of it; and, for the convenience of put ting it in and out of the boiler or copper, a small tackle of pulleys is fixed just over the copper, and by the side of it is a block of stone, with a hole or cavity in it large enough to receive the press, and hold it firmly upright, whilst a lever or wrench is applied to the screw to turn it round and produce the pressure, which being done, it is again returned into the boiler. To obviate the inconve WOL, XI, PART I. nience of thus lifting the press in and out of the boiler, Messrs Poltzapffell and Deyerlin of London have made the machine represented in Figs. 1. and 2 of the Plate. Plate CCXCIX. Fig. 1. being a section, and Fig. 2. an elevation, AA is a box or case of cast iron; B, a boiler or . to contain the water; and C, the grate for the fire, which is to be placed beneath it to heat the water; E is the flue or chimney, at which the smoke passes off; FFG is a press, made very strong, of cast iron, and capable of being drawn up out of the water, or let down into it at pleasure, by means of racks a, a at each side, which are actuated by pinions d, d; the axes o of these pinions extend across the machine, and have each a wheel N at the end; and these wheels are moved at the same time by two arms or endless screws, cut upon an axis, which extends from one to the other, and is turned by the handle H the press is guided in this ascent or descent by grooves in the side of the boiler. When raised up out of the water, the moulds, with the horn or tortoise-shell between them, are put beneath the presser I, and a severe pressure is produced by turning the wheel K. This wheel has an endless screw R. upon its axis, which works the teeth of a large wheel L., fixed on the top of the screw P. The screw is received into a female screw formed within the box or presser I, which is guided and prevented from turning round by the cross bare e, through which the presser is fitted; by this means, when the screw Pis turned round by the wheel L and endless screw, the horn or tortoise-shell is pressed between the moulds; the press is then lowered again into the water of the boiler, in order to be still farther softened by the boiling; but when the press is down in the boiler, the screw can be screwed tighter by turning the wheel K until the desired im pression is obtained. press is then raised up out of the boiler, and by turning back the wheel K, the pressure is released, and the moulds can be removed. The Figures X, Y and Z represent a pair of moulds proper for forming a cylindrical snuff-box : X is the in ternal mould for the box, into the bottom of which a piece of shell, softened by boiling, and cut round, is first placed; and round the inside a long slip is curled, the ends being made to lap over with a proper joint. The external mould Y is then put into the cavity of the horn, and is forcibly pressed by the screw so as to give the horn the shape of Y when it is withdrawn from the mould: a similar mould is used for making the lid of the box. Small boxes, and those which are slightly raised, can be made from one single piece without join ing; also tooth-pick cases and similar articles. The Chinese are famous for making lanterns of horn verythin and transparent. We are informed, in the Annales des Arts, that they employ the same methods as we do of effecting the joinings by softening the horn in hot water, but that they use a long beam or lever, for making the pressure. This method is for making up the leaves of horn from small pieces; but as the boiling would disfigure these leaves, they are united together to form the lanterns, by warming them at the fire, and pressing the edges of them together by hot pincers, made flat on the inside; by this means the joints are so perfect that they can scarcely be perceived. See a translation of this paper in the Repertory of Arts, 2d Series, vol. xxix. An account of the manufacture of Chinese lanterns, will be found in the Memoires des Sgavans Etrangers, tom. ii. p. 350, in a Memoir by M. D’Incarville. (J.

[Miller Bro's]

This could be solved with current technology. A piece of this handle material could be sent to a laboratory associated with wildlife for chemical analysis. Horn, antler and bone all have different 'chemical profiles'. Likely there is no DNA in this material but if there was this would conclusively give the species of animal from which it came.
The U.S. Federal Department of Wildlife has extensive laboratory facilities.
kj

It can be solved right in your own home without going through all that trouble.

If you have one of the knives with this handle material and are willing to burn a little hole in the handles, then take a pin heat it up red hot with a lighter and insert it into the handle. If it burns in easily and you smell a burning hair smell it is horn and not bone.

That's the easy part if you want to know the exact species if it is bone or antler then you will need a laboratory analysis,

[LongBlade]

Lyle and Greg - Those references are rather convincing - very strong, if not irrefutable, evidence that it is horn made into knife handles - and coupled to The Penny Magazine text that is 3 references of a similar nature ... However It would be nice if there was a picture as well ... and like you Lyle I lean towards that conclusion but something still seems missing.... in the end after seeing the stag above i think both were used and perhaps closely resembled each other

KJ - DNA can link to calcium in bone pending a number of factors - but if it was strongly heated as well chances are it’s gone... Perhaps the chemical fingerprint of horn vs antler can differentiate those (and Dimitri’s hot pin method is alot less expensive) but not species as you know...

[wlf]

Well Lyle this one,whatever it is, is not horn. I heated a very small nail red hot and nothing but a small scorched pin point, as can be seen just to the right of the corroded center pin.

[LongBlade]

Well Lyle this one,whatever it is, is not horn. I heated a very small nail red hot and nothing but a small scorched pin point, as can be seen just to the right of the corroded center pin.

I think I spent way too much time reading about horn this morning - but if I understand correctly horn has a bony core covered by layers of keratin - so in boiling horn one would get rid of the keratin layer and be left with the bony core - assuming one uses this bony core to be compressed into knife handles it would become very hard.... Based on this Lyle this may be the reason the hot pin didn’t penetrate easily... or your needle wasn’t hot enough OR it was antler to begin with ...

[kootenay joe]

To be more conclusive, if you have a knife with known horn handles, do the same hot pin test and see if it burns in easier and creates a burning hair smell.
If the result is similar to the first test(shown above) it might indicates the pin was not hot enough and the test needs to be repeated with a glowing red hot pin.
I will look around here for some old horn and some old 'squished brain' handles and do a hot pin comparison test.
If a few other 'keeners' do the same we can compare results. Sunday fun. Try it out. I am not sure if i have even 1 horn handled knife so i might not be able to do this little experiment.
kj

[Mason]

Quote: "All the examples I have and have seen are natural stag."
I take this to mean that the Parker & Field on page 1 and the Wostenholm above have handles made from antler of a member of the deer family.
While i do not doubt this i have not seen an antler with this texture but all antler i have seen is North American. Finding an antler or piece of, with the same surface texture would be conclusive and perhaps lead to an ID of the deer species.
kj

The English had the best stag from all around the world at their disposal.

Here's a piece of deer antler, old stuff, I got from a friend in England to me it looks very similar if not the same as what is being called pressed/patent stag. YMMV

A great example of how a picture is worth a thousand words.
Thanks for this picture, M.B.

[Mason]

Well Lyle this one,whatever it is, is not horn. I heated a very small nail red hot and nothing but a small scorched pin point, as can be seen just to the right of the corroded center pin.

In my opinion, this handle has way too much complexity and randomness to have been created by a human hand simply for the use as a handle. If you look at all of the "molded" stag type handles that companies like Schrade, Wostenholm, LF&C, and others produced over time, you will see patterns which are fairly uniform and consistent, while still employing a pleasing "stag" type look. No offence made at the appearance of this knife handle shown, (I personally like its character) but I can not imagine that someone would have created this extremely intricate and less than the most visually pleasing pattern for a mold.

Molded rubber handles and molded horn handles have different outcomes due to the process of each. Molded synthetic handles as seen on many LF&C knives will have wonderfully sharp and precise shapes, while molded horn handles will always have "rounded" edges and far less sharpness of their synthetic counterparts. Enclosed is a picture showing two similar knife handles from the early 1900s. The top one has carved horn handles, while the bottom one has pressed horn handles. Notice the sharp edges on the carved model versus the rounded edges on the bottom one. Even though pictures can be quite good, they are never as good as the knife in hand with good light and a strong loop.

[wlf]

Is the patent stag spoke about in the Treasury Dept article just jigged bone,and an inspector's and a Dept.'s ignorance ? I also don't understand why we never see this on US manufacturers. Maybe they are out there, we just haven't seen them?

As I told Roland before, I was not totally convinced because of a lot of unanswered questions and lack of consensus. Still a mysterious handle material to me.

[LongBlade]

I understand your points quite well Neal ... the checkered handles are no doubt more uniform but than again I have checkered ivory handles (no photos at the moment) that were no doubt hand done and were very consistent... I have to say though that I have seen some faux stag and jigging where the randomness truly is quite well done and makes me wonder.

Like Lyle though I am abit confused or not convinced yet... based on the written text above about molded handles and use of horn etc they do exist in my opinion - so where are examples of one?? The reason I posted my IXL whittler a few pages back was because it also seems to me to “possibly” be a pressed natural material with stag like markings (maybe it’s jigging and not stag like ) but it differs significantly from the OP knife and others posted here - one can see on my IXL handles where the dark brown dye was well worn around the edges and the dyed material was quite white in color... was this possibly considered patent stag??

Again to echo Lyle it still is abit of a mystery to me... and were the American companies unable to get that stag ? To that last point given nice stag handles on old American knives were few and far between maybe it was not easy to import that stag ( or maybe the import tariffs made it not very cost effective)... nonetheless until I see what is no doubt a pressed horn or patent stag handle I still feel I’m not sure.. so still a mysterious handle material to me too... ... but I love a good mystery

[kootenay joe]

The Treasury Dept. ruling of 1890 linked to in wlf's post previous page, concerns an application by Humason & Beckley to import pieces of horn duty free. There was a 30% tariff on horn that had been treated or worked on in some way, but no tariff on untreated pieces of horn. Therefore this ruling needed to describe these pieces of horn. They are described as being cut to length & thickness suitable for knife handles and "made to imitate in roughness the natural appearance of deer horn".
The only way this is not conclusive evidence is if the handle pieces being imported by H&B were something other than the handles we are debating here.
The deer antler shown by D. has some resemblance to the handles in question. I think the handles we are unsure of are trying to imitate the texture of antler like the one D. has shown.
The O.P. knife i believe has real stag handles, the type of antler shown in D.'s posted picture.
As for the other handles shown here which we are debating, the Treasury Board report is conclusive as long as the handle pieces being referred to are the same as the ones we are unsure of. There is no photograph to document this material. However the description of being "made to imitate in roughness the appearance of deer horn" sounds conclusive to me.
kj

[LongBlade]

The only way this is not conclusive evidence is if the handle pieces being imported by H&B were something other than the handles we are debating here.

The deer antler shown by D. has some resemblance to the handles in question. I think the handles we are unsure of are trying to imitate the texture of antler like the one D. has shown.

As for the other handles shown here which we are debating, the Treasury Board report is conclusive as long as the handle pieces being referred to are the same as the ones we are unsure of. There is no photograph to document this material. However the description of being "made to imitate in roughness the appearance of deer horn" sounds conclusive to me.
kj

That summed it up KJ - the parts I quoted above are the missing parts of the puzzle... if we only had some visual examples it would really help to make more definitive conclusions in my opinion... Without this it is hard to say if anybody is wrong in their assumptions but I remain on the fence... I no doubt have jigged bone handles from H&B but nothing stag- like.... I wonder if an original H&B catalog might be helpful - if they listed patent stag as a handle material - if it just listed stag as many old cutlery catalogs did even for jigged bone it won’t be helpful..