camillus #72

[Shearer]

Jerry thanks for the information.Grant

[Quick Steel]

Ok. Somebody help me out and remove a bit of my ignorance. Please be gentle. I thought whittlers were always set up with a single master blade up front and the two smaller blades to the rear. Based on what I'm seeing in this thread, I am wrong. Right?

[TAB2you]

Ok. Somebody help me out and remove a bit of my ignorance. Please be gentle. I thought whittlers were always set up with a single master blade up front and the two smaller blades to the rear. Based on what I'm seeing in this thread, I am wrong. Right?

QS-

I have wondered the same thing, I have a GEC gepetto whittler, that's set up with a master Wharncliffe and a secondary clip and coping blade on the opposite pin. I have a Schatt whittler, too, wharnie master blade and two pen blades opposite pin.

So many knife configuratons, so little time.

I'm not sure how they call a 72 a whittler, but they did.

Maybel they'll be gentle with me, too?

TAB

[orvet]

I thought whittlers were always set up with a single master blade up front and the two smaller blades to the rear. Based on what I'm seeing in this thread, I am wrong. Right?

Well, I will give you my take on this question, it is very simple; if I make the knife, I can call it what ever I like. I think it really is as simple as that.

Now, the #72 does have classic blades often found in found in the "Classic Whittler" pattern.
The "Classic Whittler" has a single blade at one end of the knife that works on both springs, and two blades at the other end, each operating on separate springs, (although in some older examples the back spring is split so there are two springs on one end and a single spring on the other). The blades on a classic whittler can vary, but small clip blades, coping blades, & pen blades are some of the most common.

The #72 uses blades often found on the classic whittlers, the large clip, small clip and the coping blades, they are just found in different locations than one would expect to find them on a classic whittler. The blades will still perform the same tasks they were designed for, despite the location; it is still a knife that has the tools a whittler or wood carver would use. So the question might well be raised; “Why not call it a whittler?”

I guess it all boils down to the fact, Camillus made the knife, so it was up to them to name it, and they chose to call it a “Whittler.”

That is how I see it. Someone else may see it differently.

[msteele6]

I would have to respectfully disagree.

To me a word, to be useful, has to have an agreed upon definition. If everyone is free to define words with whatever meaning they wish to assign them, communication becomes impossible.

If I manufacture an "automobile" and then choose to call it a "boat", I can't really be upset when people see it going down the street and say, "There goes an automobile!"

In my humble opinion a "whittler" is a knife that is laid out in the following configuration: One end houses a master blade that bears on the width of the springs (spring in that rare case of a true "split spring" whittler, of which I have seen one or maybe two examples) the other end houses two secondary blades, each of which bears on a single spring.

Using this definition, a 72 pattern Camillus is not a whittler, even though it's "balloon pattern" is very commonly seen as a whittler pattern (e.g. the Case 6383).

JMO

[jerryd6818]

It's actually a whole lot simpler than that. In the 1946, 1948 and 1965 catalog, the #72 pattern was listed as "Carpenter's and Whittler's Knife". That was the name Camillus gave the knife. Notice it did not call the knife a "Whittler" but was worded such that this was the knife of Carpenter's (a profession) and Whittler's (a hobby) which says to me the people who do carpenter work and the people who whittle. It may be nit picking but they never actually called the knife a Whittler (which has been defined in detail in previous posts) until the 1972 catalog.

The knife carried the C&W name for somewhere between 20 and 25 years. After the 1965 catalog came out and before the 1972 catalog was published (we may never know exactly when) the name changed to plain old "Whittler". Maybe because that was what the name had been shortened to by the knife buying public and was what the #72 pattern was commonly referred to as. Does anyone know for sure. I sure don't.

Is the #72 pattern a true 'Whittler'? -- NO

Is the #72 pattern, actually a 'Stockman' -- YES

Should it be called a 'Stockman'? -- NO! ........... That would be akin to calling a Ford Pinto a Mustang. The company named it 'Whittler' and it's been called that for over 40 years (actually closer to 60 years). Who are we to break from tradition and start calling it a 'Stockman'? Camillus named it a 'Whittler', a 'Whittler' it is.

Is it confusing? YES! ......... But it's not the only knife that has an off the wall name unrelated to it's pattern. (Broad, unsubstantiated statement there. I'm taking license here.)

For the persnickety, such as me, I don't see harm in calling it a 'Whittler' as long as it's understood, on a purist level, that the knife is actually a 'Stockman' pattern. 'Whittler' is it's name. Call it that. My name is Jerry, don't call me Fred.


(Actually I usually call it a Carpenter's Knife, just because I like the name. )

[Quick Steel]

(Actually I usually call it a Carpenter's Knife, just because I like the name

Thanks to all for a very interesting exchange. Sort of glad the issue engaged more than only me. Nice to have company. I now think a Carpenter's knife would have been the best designation given its configuration even tho it has the typical whittler blades. But it is what it is.

Just to add to the fun, I have a couple of GEC whittlers with only two blades a spear point and a pen. So I'm just going to have be more flexible.

[jerryd6818]

It's good to be flexible Garry. As long as you don't bend over backwards too far.


That Riverboat Gambler is a fine looking knife. I had one of each of the three 89 patterns until they brought out the forth this year. Sigh. They do that on purpose don't they.

[Quick Steel]

[img]That%20Riverboat%20Gambler%20is%20a%20fine%20looking%20knife.%20I[/img]

I'm surprised how much I use it. The slim profile and light weight make it extra convenient for carry.

[bworldwidedotcom]

Sorry for the bad pictures>>>>

just got my first #72 today in a real sweet multi-knife lot on ebay - got a real good deal!

It's missing the shield, and one handle is badly faded, as though it was laying in a window sill for years or something.

There is also some fairly dirty rusty grease all over the inside of the knife and on some of the blades, but nothing a bath in WD40 wont mostly deal with.

Are these bone handles or composition? They have three pins per scale, like you'd see on a bone handled knife.

What is the approximate age range on this one, 60-76?

I wouldn't mine rehandling this one with some cow horn I have in my tool box, but if the handles are real bone, I will probably go looking for an original shield and probably pin it into place as well as glue.

The blades have good snap and probably will get better after a good cleaning and oiling.

I really like this pattern, esp., also because it is from one of our country's great (sadly) past knife making companies.

By the way, did any of you read about the recent sale of the old Camillus factory who will be turning the property into a medical office complex? The original office buildings will be called "Camillus Mills". I think the huge factory building by the river will be demolished to make a park. A nice story, I suppose. Too bad they couldn't use the buildings to house a manufacturing building rather than a medical office, but if it suits the needs of the people there, then good for them.

[orvet]

I got a new version, (to me), of the #72 off ebay from our own Scott (TripleF).
It is an Imperial Boy Scout version of the 72 we know & love (well some of love them).

I had not seen this version before, but Jerry has a couple I think he said.
Hmmmm........ We should make a list of the brand variations of this pattern.

Thanks Scott, you did me right once again!!

[jerryd6818]

just got my first #72 today in a real sweet multi-knife lot on ebay - got a real good deal!

Are these bone handles or composition? They have three pins per scale, like you'd see on a bone handled knife.

What is the approximate age range on this one, 60-76?

Congrats on the 72. You're gonna love it. I don't see how you could not. As one guy said, "it's the biggest little knife you'll ever carry".

I couldn't tell from the pictures but if the tang stamp is a 'long line' like this one, it's usually considered to be from the '60 to '76 era, in which case the handles are most likely Delrin. Check the edges of the handles with a magnifying glass. If it's smooth with no blood vessel inclusions then it's Delrin (almost certain it is).

Edit:
According to what I can tell from the catalogs, Camillus stopped pinning the handles on the 72s in 1977. Now that's just the brown Delrin handles. They put out a few with bone handles in the 90s which had pinned handles of course and for some reason the Yello-Jaket's are always pinned, right up to closing of the factory.

One more note, the 1047 (Scout version of the 72) never had pinned handles. Probably because of the Scout shield. They also never had a pattern number stamped on the pile side of the blade.

[jerryd6818]

Dale, I don't know if this is what you had in mind but it's a start.


Sword Brand (Camillus) Whittler – WWII ’41-’46 (The Alpha. The first of the #72s, a true split spring whittler.) Black synthetic handles. #72 frame & blade profiles. Flat ground main blade both sides, pen & coping secondary blades

(2) Camillus #72 – ’46-’50 (or ’60) Bone handles, saber ground main blade both mark & pile sides, w/pen & coping blade.

Camillus #72 – ’60 to ’76 Black synthetic handles, main blade saber ground on mark side, flat ground on pile side, w/small clip & coping secondary blades

Camillus #80 (72) - ’60 to ’76 – “Deluxe Carpenter’s & Whittler’s Knife. Black synthetic handles, milled liners, nickel silver bolsters, liners & pins. Main blade saber ground on mark side, flat ground on pile side, w/small clip & coping secondary blades.

Camillus #1047 – (Boy Scout version of the #72) 197x to 198x Boy Scout – Brown Delrin (rocker pin only) handles. main blade saber ground on mark side, flat ground on pile side, w/small clip & coping secondary blades. No pattern number on the main blade pile side tang.

Camillus #72 – 1989 to closing – Brown Delrin handles. Main blade flat ground on both sides, w/small clip & coping secondary blades

Camillus 22LR6 (72) Yello-Jaket 1997 – Yellow Delrin handles. Main blade etched “Yello-Jaket” and flat ground on both sides, w/small clip & coping secondary blades

Camillus #72 Yello-Jaket SFO for Coca-Cola Chattanooga TN 1992 – Main blade etched “Chattanooga Coca-Cola” & flat ground on both sides, w/small clip & coping secondary blades. Small clip secondary etched “Worlds First Coca-Cola Bottler”

Camillus #72 100th Anniversary (or so I’m told but I don’t think so. The official 100th Anniversary stockmans, 1876-1976, I've seen on eBay have the 197x-198x tang stamp. This knife has the 1989 to Closing tang stamp) – Black Delrin handles. Flat ground main blade both sides with a ducks over water scene etched deeply into blade. Small clip & coping secondary blades.


Camillus #5 (72) - ’99-’03 (The Omega. The last of the #72s) Wood Handles, brass bolsters, brass pins, flat ground main blade both sides, w/small clip & coping secondary blades

The following are not Camillus brand but have the #72 frame, closed length of 3-5/8", blade profiles and blade layout

Imperial Boy Scout ’46-’56 – Handles are black synthetic with a sort of gold clear Scout emblem embedded on the Mark side where the shield goes. Main blade is saber ground on both sides. Secondary blades are small clip and coping blades.

Made In USA (Sears Roebuck contract knife 1924-1965? Camillus?) – Black synthetic handles appear to be mounted in the Camillus way. Main blade is saber ground on both sides. Secondary blades are pen & coping blades. This one is odd because it has the quarter moon nail nick instead of the long match strike pull of all the Camillus I've seen or even the plain long pull like the Schrade/Ulsters. Out of my small collection, only this one and the WWII true whittler have that nail nick.

Craftsman 9494 (Ulster #63) – “Craftsman” stamped football shield. Very dark brown Delrin handles. Main blade is saber ground on mark side & flat ground on pile side. Secondary blades are small clip & coping blades.

Ulster #63 – Plain football shield. Dark brown Delrin handles. Main blade saber ground mark side, flat ground pile side. Small clip and coping secondary blades.

Ulster #63 – Football “Ulster” stamped shield. Funky orangeish synthetic handles. Main blade saber ground mark side, flat ground pile side. Small clip and coping secondary blades.

Powr-Kraft 84-11 (Camillus #72 contract knife made for Montgomery Wards) – Brown Delrin handles. Main Blade saber ground on mark side, flat ground on pile side. Small clip and coping secondary blades.

Powr-Kraft 84-?? (Camillus #80 Deluxe Carpenter’s & Whittler’s contract knife made for Montgomery Wards) – Brown Delrin handles. Milled liners, nickel silver bolsters, liners & pins. Main blade saber ground on mark side, flat ground on pile side. Secondary blades are small clip & coping.

Remington R-14 (Camillus #72) – Brown worm grove synthetic handles. Round Remington shield. Main blade flat ground on both sides. Secondary blades are small clip & coping.

(2) Schrade 863 – “Schrade” stamped football shield. Dark brown synthetic (Delrin?) handles. Main blade saber ground on mark side, flat ground on pile side. Secondary blades are small clip & coping.

McGrew – (Camillus 72 - 1977 or later) Federal shield with an underlined M. Brown Delrin unpinned handles. Main blade saber ground on mark side (match strike long pull), flat ground on pile side. “Hillbilly Classic” etched on main blade. McGrew underlined over Arkansas over USA – tang stamp.


Olsen Knife Co. – (Camillus 72 – mid ‘60s to mid ‘70s <just a guess>) Pinned dark brown Delrin handles with Federal shield. Flat ground main blade both sides with long match strike pull. Tang stamp - Olsen over Knife Co. Standard 72 blade configuration and came with a leather belt sheath.

Stanley SL-6 – (Camillus 72) Pinned saw cut black Delrin handles with yellow and black shield containing the word “Stanley”. Main blade flat ground both sides with match strike long pull. “Stanley” tang stamp enclosed by the same design as the shield. Pile side has stamped “SL6 over 440 S.S. over USA”. Standard 72 blade configuration.

York Cutlery -- (Camillus 72 ????) Pinned dark brown Delrin handles with Federal shield. Flat ground main blade both sides with long match strike pull. Tang stamp is York over Cutlery. “Solingen over Germany” on the pile side. Standard 72 blade configuration.

Want but not in my collection (did I just use the word collection? ) Maybe I'll come back some day, when I have more enthusium, and add pictures for each entry.

Camillus -- (72) Smokey Mountain Knife Works "Ole Smoky" -- An '89 to Close Camillus #72 with "Ole Smoky" etched on the flat ground (both sides) main blade. Long match strike pull.

Camillus -- #1047 Scout (72) ~'47 to sometime in the early 1960s. Black synthetic handles with the Federal type Scout shield. Saber ground (F)/flat ground (R) blade with long match strike pull. Handles not pinned. Clip/coping/small clip blades.

Camillus -- #72Y Yello-Jaket '89 to Close. Yellow and brown "staglon" style handles with a characterization of a colored yellow jacket wasp in the round synthetic shield. Yello-Jaket etched flat ground main blade. Standard blade compliment

[orvet]

Wow Jerry, great start!

Actually I was thinking of a photo comparison, but photos with descriptions is even better!

Excellent research BTW!

[TAB2you]

JerryD

Tremendous work. Thank you for that post.

Thomas

[knifetime]

Just let me add one more to your list Jerryd.The 72B "ole smoky" Jeggid bone c1990s SMKW.

[jerryd6818]

Yeah, I was going to include that even though I don't have one but the brain made a left turn at Albuquerque. I also forgot to add the older 1047 Scout with the Federal type Scout shield like Dale just posted and the Camillus Yello-Jaket with the yellow-jacket in the shield.

Just went back and added those three. Thanks Phillip, for the reminder.

Dale -- I was going to include pictures for each but remembered you can only post ten to a page unless they're stored on the net. I was too lazy to modify the file names and FTP the pictures up to my web site so you got a half-A job. Maybe some other day.

[treefarmer]

Jerry, The 2nd half of your list you just put up, were all these 72's by Camillus with different company names on the tang and shield or were they just made to the spec of a 72? If so does this relate to the Schrade/Imperial discussion about who owned what company at a certain point in company history? Treefarmer

[jerryd6818]

Phil -- Some, where noted, are Camillus SFO contract knives, often with the contractor's tang stamp instead of that of Camillus.

The Schrade/Ulster/Imperial (owned by the same entity sometimes and often at the same time) knives are Camillus #72 clones made to the same specs. I'm reasonably certain they did contract knives such as, but not limited to, the Ulster 63/Craftsman 9494 knife.

I hope that answers your question because the inbreeding in the knife world confuses the heck out of me most of the time.

[knifetime]

Thank you for the info Jerry,your a wealth of knowledge and my go to guy for information on the 72s.Thanks again for tacking the time to inform us.

[orvet]

Here is a 72 I had not seen before.
I picked it up at the OKCA Mini-Show yesterday.

I thought it was cool and the acrylic shield is different, though I have not decided if I am a huge fan or not yet.

[Shearer]

Very good find Dale.You will have Jerry licking his lips at least 72 times

[knifetime]

I love there yellow jackets.Great looking knives.

[bworldwidedotcom]

just got my first #72 today in a real sweet multi-knife lot on ebay - got a real good deal!

Are these bone handles or composition? They have three pins per scale, like you'd see on a bone handled knife.

What is the approximate age range on this one, 60-76?

Congrats on the 72. You're gonna love it. I don't see how you could not. As one guy said, "it's the biggest little knife you'll ever carry".

I couldn't tell from the pictures but if the tang stamp is a 'long line' like this one, it's usually considered to be from the '60 to '76 era, in which case the handles are most likely Delrin. Check the edges of the handles with a magnifying glass. If it's smooth with no blood vessel inclusions then it's Delrin (almost certain it is).

Edit:
According to what I can tell from the catalogs, Camillus stopped pinning the handles on the 72s in 1977. Now that's just the brown Delrin handles. They put out a few with bone handles in the 90s which had pinned handles of course and for some reason the Yello-Jaket's are always pinned, right up to closing of the factory.

One more note, the 1047 (Scout version of the 72) never had pinned handles. Probably because of the Scout shield. They also never had a pattern number stamped on the pile side of the blade.

Thanks. It def. is the "long-line" stamp, carbon steel blades, unmilled brass liners, pile of master marked "72"...yep, just a "standard" Camillus 72. The handles really look like bone, as they have little cracks in them, but without a powerful glass it is hard to tell. I like it either way.

Any chance of me finding a shield for this model so I can put it back on? Also, how was the shield installed, with epoxy? Not a very good attachment method. I might trying drilling and pinning if I can ever find one. Who knows, maybe I will try to make one...

Thanks for your input. I have seen lots of the black handled ones on ebay, and they do seem earlier in overall look than any that I have seen with the brown delrin. I remember someone posted a 40's brown bone 72 on this forum a while back...what a great looking knife.

[jerryd6818]

bworldwidedotcom -- I cleaned your picture up as best as possible and zoomed in to see if that was a federal shield that was supposed to be on your knife and it looks like it was. You might ask Dale (orvet) if he has one. They were pretty universal on Camillus knives. I've replaced a couple of them and two part epoxy works just fine.

As for the handles on your knife, I feel reasonably certian they are Delrin. Camillus made some Delrin handles in that era that are sometimes very difficult to tell from bone. That being said, I have never seen a 72 from that era (post 1960 with brown handles) that had bone handles. Not saying none exist, just that if they do I've never seen them.


Okay, it's official. I now hate Dale Vincent and his Yello-Jaket -- Yellow Jacket shield knife. Dale, you're a dirty rotten scoundrel for showing that to me. I'm going to talk to Gunny about putting you on mess duty for the next six months.

I'm kidding. Kinda.