Frontier folding hunter - and a question

[Reverand]

This Frontier folding hunter had loose plastic scales and a lot of blade play.

Before

When I got it apart I was surprised to find that it must have been made by Schrade for Imperial, as it had Swinden keys. Well, at least it did on the front bolster. It had the keyhole on the rear bolsters, but they were not used. It was pinned through instead (marked in blue).

Partial Swinden key

I love the way it looks now with Oak handles, and pinning it through the front bolsters fixed the blade play. I have had problems lately getting my blades centered in the wells after repairs, and I got that problem figured out. But now both of these blades are stiff when closing. They have great opening snap, but none on closing.
Any suggestions?

[treefarmer]

That's a fine lookin' upgrade!
Rev you did a wonderful job.
Love the older folding hunters.
Treefarmer

[orvet]

This Frontier folding hunter had loose plastic scales and a lot of blade play.

When I got it apart, I was surprised to find that it must have been made by Schrade for Imperial, as it had Swinden keys. Well, at least it did on the front bolster. It had the keyhole on the rear bolsters, but they were not used. It was pinned through instead (marked in blue).

I love the way it looks now with Oak handles and pinning it through the front bolsters fixed the blade play. I have had problems lately getting my blades centered in the wells after repairs, and I got that problem figured out. But now both of these blades are stiff when closing. They have great opening snap, but none on closing.
Any suggestions?

Interesting story about the Frontier brand, some of them were made in Providence and some were made by Camillus and that is established through factory records, and some were made by Schrade as the Swinden key clearly Indicates. Depending on the model and when they were made a given Frontier pattern could have been made in two or three different factories, all owned or controlled by Albert Baer. Eventually, he was the sole owner of Camillus, Schrade and Imperial.

A couple possible reasons for your blades being stiff in closing:
- Wear on the round end of the tang.
- Front bolsters not parallel to one another. This might be caused by having one handle a little too long and it is not allowing the bolsters to set parallel to one another.

Those are a couple the come to my mind at the moment.
Hopefully somebody else will have a good idea as to what caused that, perhaps Eric, Glenn or someone else has encountered this before.

[Rdubya21]

Love the new scales

[tongueriver]

Great job, Rev, and great thread. All of the folding hunters with Swinden keys were only Swinden on one end.

[knifeaholic]

I'm fairly certain that both the Schrade factory in Ellenville and the Imperial factory in Providence had the Swinden equipment, so it was likely made in the Imperial factory.

[tongueriver]

I'm fairly certain that both the Schrade factory in Ellenville and the Imperial factory in Providence had the Swinden equipment, so it was likely made in the Imperial factory.

That is both extremely interesting and unexpected. And where is that stuff now? I believe that Herman Williams planned to destroy the jigging machine.

[ea42]

Reverand it sounds like it could be one of two things:

1. Your blade tangs are binding up between the liners when the blades are closed. This can be remedied by opening up the gap a bit. Youcan accomplish this with a thin blade such as a muskrat. I've used a stockman blade in the example. It's important that they're thin though so you can slowly open it up. Just open a blade halfway, slide the blade alongside the tang at an angle, and then while holding that blade against the gap between tang and liner close the knife blade a bit, say roughly to about 45 degrees, maybe less initially. This will force the liner apart just a bit. You want to go slowly, don't force it way apart or you'll make it too loose. You may need to do it with both blades or if not too tight just the one might do the trick.

2. The spring might be bound between the liners. You'll notice this is the culprit if the spring doesn't follow the blade tang closely when you close the blade. It'll stick out a bit from the liner and you'll be able to push it in to the gap with your fingers. If that's the case you can open this area up a bit by opening the blade fully and then laying it flat on a stiddy or table edge with the bolster against the table. Take a mallet and give the bolster a little smack.

It sounds more like #1 is your culprit though.

Eric

[Reverand]

Thank you for the suggestions, gentlemen!
I played with it a bit and got the back clip blade to work properly. The front spey (or drop?) blade is inconsistent though. It loosened until I have too much play, and it may snap upon closing one time, but not the next.
I guess I will take it all apart again and check things out.
I can always make it a single blade as a worst-case scenario!

[zed6309]

Beautiful job I've got a schrade made imperial frontier stockman, it's a really well made knife , especially love the swedge and matchstrike nail pull

[Quick Steel]

You have a great looking knife in that Stockman, Paul.

[orvet]

I'm fairly certain that both the Schrade factory in Ellenville and the Imperial factory in Providence had the Swinden equipment, so it was likely made in the Imperial factory.

I am surprised to hear that Stephen. I understand the original machines were extremely difficult to get set up and dialed in, according to someone who was good friends with Dave Swinden. He said that Schrade was the only factory in the world that had the Swinden equipment. I know Herman Williams had a machine that could set the depth of the Swinden rivets so that they were not too tight or too loose. Herman told me Dave made the machine for him and that it was the only one outside of the Schrade factory. He also told me the machine had worn out or broken and Dave had allnot been able to get down to Herman's place to fix it.

I know you're a good researcher Stephen and I know you know and understand the history of many of these companies. I was wondering if you have a source of information that indicated Providence had the Swinden equipment?

According to Tom Williams Camillus did not have the Swinden equipment, Although they did make parts for Schrade knives that were produced on the Swinden equipment.

Thank you for your input. I look forward dor your reply.
Dale

[knifeaholic]

I may be wrong about the Swinden equipment at Imperial.

However, living in the vicinity of Providence, I occasionally run into knives that were owned by or obtained from Imperial employees.

Within the past two years, a large group of knives showed up at one of our knife shows. They were obtained from a former Imperial employee, and the story was that they all were mounted on a board that hung in the office of the QC manager at the Imperial plant in Providence.

I was able to purchase quite a few of the knives.

While some were the expected "crimped bolster" knives, the majority were solid bolster knives that had Swinden construction.

These included Frontiers, Sears Craftsman (ACA edge and others), and the solid-bolster Imperial Diamond Edge knives.

[tongueriver]

The plot thickens...

[ea42]

Dale Steve is correct. It was invented by Dave but the patent was filed by Imperial Knife Associated Companies in 1960 and the process was used at both factories. There weren't really any specialized machines involved, rather it was tooling and fixtures that accomplished the parts process. The tooling and processes were nearly the same as what was used on a conventional knife with the exception of pre-forming the large head on the bolster pins. The bolsters were formed with a hollowed out back rather than a smooth back, and a keyhole punch was used rather than a standard round punch to punch out the liners. All the liner holes were punched out at the same time on an O press. For example here's the fixture for the Canal Street stockman liners:

Eric

[knifeaholic]

Thanks for the explanation, Eric.

It has always seemed to me that the Swinden system was basically a variation or upgrade of the system (Elosi patent?) that had been in use at Imperial since the 1930's to manufacture the "Jackmaster" crimped bolster knives.

For both the Elosi system and the Swinden system, there is no through-pinning of the bolsters.

The Swinden system was effectively an upgrade of the Elosi patent - the Elosi was good for the lower end knives, the Swinden for higher end knives that to the uninitiated appear to be conventional knives with solid bolsters that are pinned through.

The irony is that due to the issues with Swinden construction - the brass liners wearing causing blade wobble - the Elosi system was actually superior from the standpoint of the blades remaining solid in the frame.

Colonial had their own somewhat different system, but in effect like the Swinden system - for their Ranger and Anvil knives.

[knifeaholic]

Also, it is easy to see why the Swinden system would be somewhat difficult to implement.

Each blade pin is "cold headed" on both ends, and the dimensions of each cold head and the space in between the two cold heads would have to be controlled absolutely perfectly or the knife would have blade wobble upon the initial assembly, and would have to be scrapped.

It would seem that forming the first cold head on a blade pin would be simple, but not so for the second one.

The second cold head would have to be formed (lets' say for a two-blade knife) with both blades and the center liner in place prior to the cold heading process on the second side, which again would have to be perfect.

[ea42]

Steve the major complaint about the Swinden system (loose blades) was in many cases caused by mismatched widths in blades and springs and not the system itself. Many times the springs were ten thousandths or more wider than the blade tangs. The result was that when the knife was finished you only had one point at the top corner of the liner that was holding the blade tang tight when opened. Below that was a gap to the spring. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that just a little prying would open up such a week joint. I don't know what knucklehead started that trend but it was a huge error for sure. Probably the clock watchers who figured that it would take less effort to cutler a knife so more knives could be made per hour. That's really annoying to me because when it's done right with the correct parts the Swinden system is actually quite stout.

Yes it was definitely a rather exacting bit of engineering getting those pins the correct length between the heads. But the thing to remember is that the parts were always the same width so once the initial setup batch was dialed in the rest would fit flawlessly.

Eric

[edge213]

Eric, I always find your information fascinating.
Thank you.

[zed6309]

You have a great looking knife in that Stockman, Paul.

Thanks mate

So my Imperial could of been made at imperial , very interesting read guys , forever learning