SHOW US YOUR PETS!!!

[Loose Arrow]

Here's another one, chasing a lure.

[Dan In MI]

Unfortunately “backyard” breeders and puppy mills have diluted the gene pool of many breeds, and especially popular breeds.

Dogs from such sources are also more likely to exhibit bad traits inherent in some breeds. Backyard breeders and puppy mills are motivated not by desire to maintain breed standards, but by profitability and greed. It's a thoroughly reprehensible business model.

[Loose Arrow]

Unfortunately “backyard” breeders and puppy mills have diluted the gene pool of many breeds, and especially popular breeds.

Dogs from such sources are also more likely to exhibit bad traits inherent in some breeds. Backyard breeders and puppy mills are motivated not by desire to maintain breed standards, but by profitability and greed. It's a thoroughly reprehensible business model.

You seem to know a whole lot about backyard breeding. It's been 23yrs since I've sold a dog. How about you? Be honest.

[Dan In MI]

It's been 23yrs since I've sold a dog. How about you? Be honest.

I've never sold a dog. All of my dogs have been spayed or neutered. My comments referred to the sort of backyard breeders Ken spoke of. Seems I may have touched a nerve. If so, my apologies. My comments about puppy mills stand.

[Loose Arrow]

It's been 23yrs since I've sold a dog. How about you? Be honest.

I've never sold a dog. All of my dogs have been spayed or neutered. My comments referred to the sort of backyard breeders Ken spoke of. Seems I may have touched a nerve. If so, my apologies. My comments about puppy mills stand.

No. I'm direct. It's your passive-aggressiveness that got my attention. Congratulations! I'm only assuming that you're not a fan of the American Pit Bull Terrier, that's O.K. but don't be coy about it. Heck! I love to debate people who spew regurgitated garbage about my breed.

[Mumbleypeg]

But that Akbash of yours really interests me. I’ve never heard of one in my area, but we do have a lot of Great Pyrenees here. My two are with the goats and chickens. They’re super friendly, big ol fluffy goofballs. That is until a critter that isn’t their flock shows up. They’ve killed foxes and all other manner of vermin, and even though we have a lot of coyotes around us I’ve never seen one on my place since getting the GP. Do you have any experience with GP? How do you think they compare with Akbash?

Sorry Wade, I missed your question earlier. I’ve never had a GP myself, and have experience with just the one Akbash, so that may not be representative of the breed. Two of my neighbors have GP dogs and I have observed and been around them some. From what I’ve observed, other than the obvious physical differences the Akbash seems more stand-offish and wary around strangers. If ours is up around the house when a stranger (to the dog) drives up, the dog stays between the stranger and me or my wife (or grandkids) until we speak to the stranger in a friendly tone of voice. The FedEx and Amazon drivers often leave packages on the drive in front of the house (the dog knows the UPS driver ) but I think that’s more from them just looking at the dog and having second thoughts about approaching the house. I’ve never seen him make an aggressive act toward a human, or any of our dogs or cats which they know belong here. Around the family ours is a gentle lover - he wants to be petted and will nuzzle you with his big ol’ head, and lean against you. And although he’s a good citizen he’s totally immune to learning commands like sit, stay and come - he’s pretty independent.

Akbash training is the same as the GP as far as I know. BTW having two is a good idea. We’ve had an incident of coyotes hunting in pairs - one distracts the dog while the other sneaks in and steals a chicken, or whatever prey they’re after. During daylight the Akbash is usually laying down in the pasture or under a tree, with the animals he's guarding, looks like he's asleep but he's up at the least disturbance. At night I don't think he sleeps -he's constantly on the prowl in the pasture, and barks if anything threatens.

For reference here’s a picture of “Big Dog” with our 70 pound Lab.

Ken

[Dan In MI]

I'm only assuming that you're not a fan of the American Pit Bull Terrier, that's O.K. but don't be coy about it. Heck! I love to debate people who spew regurgitated garbage about my breed.

I've never had an American Pit Bull, so I'm unqualified to pass judgment on them, The "regurgitated garbage" you speak of reminds me a lot of a certain subset of GM fanboys who refuse to own a Ford, yet unhesitatingly talk about how "Fords suck," "Fords are junk," etc. and etc. Much the same with people who speak negatively about firearms (or even knives), yet have spent absolutely no time around them. I refuse to bring myself down to that level!

I have nothing further to say on this matter.

[Loose Arrow]

I've never had an American Pit Bull, so I'm unqualified to pass judgment on them, The "regurgitated garbage" you speak of reminds me a lot of a certain subset of GM fanboys who refuse to own a Ford, yet unhesitatingly talk about how "Fords suck," "Fords are junk," etc. and etc. Much the same with people who speak negatively about firearms (or even knives), yet have spent absolutely no time around them. I refuse to bring myself down to that level!

I have nothing further to say on this matter.

Great. I understand your analogy.

Dogs and Chevys make this GM fanboy happy and
Cats and Fords make you feel the same.

Let's all pursue our happiness.

[Colonel26]

But that Akbash of yours really interests me. I’ve never heard of one in my area, but we do have a lot of Great Pyrenees here. My two are with the goats and chickens. They’re super friendly, big ol fluffy goofballs. That is until a critter that isn’t their flock shows up. They’ve killed foxes and all other manner of vermin, and even though we have a lot of coyotes around us I’ve never seen one on my place since getting the GP. Do you have any experience with GP? How do you think they compare with Akbash?

Sorry Wade, I missed your question earlier. I’ve never had a GP myself, and have experience with just the one Akbash, so that may not be representative of the breed. Two of my neighbors have GP dogs and I have observed and been around them some. From what I’ve observed, other than the obvious physical differences the Akbash seems more stand-offish and wary around strangers. If ours is up around the house when a stranger (to the dog) drives up, the dog stays between the stranger and me or my wife (or grandkids) until we speak to the stranger in a friendly tone of voice. The FedEx and Amazon drivers often leave packages on the drive in front of the house (the dog knows the UPS driver ) but I think that’s more from them just looking at the dog and having second thoughts about approaching the house. I’ve never seen him make an aggressive act toward a human, or any of our dogs or cats which they know belong here. Around the family ours is a gentle lover - he wants to be petted and will nuzzle you with his big ol’ head, and lean against you. And although he’s a good citizen he’s totally immune to learning commands like sit, stay and come - he’s pretty independent.

Akbash training is the same as the GP as far as I know. BTW having two is a good idea. We’ve had an incident of coyotes hunting in pairs - one distracts the dog while the other sneaks in and steals a chicken, or whatever prey they’re after. During daylight the Akbash is usually laying down in the pasture or under a tree, with the animals he's guarding, looks like he's asleep but he's up at the least disturbance. At night I don't think he sleeps -he's constantly on the prowl in the pasture, and barks if anything threatens.

For reference here’s a picture of “Big Dog” with our 70 pound Lab.

Ken

Thanks Ken. The way her protects and “works” the livestock sounds just like my GP dogs. And the lifting up your hand with his head to get petted is spot on too. My male dog LOVES to be chased, almost like playing tag, he’s like a big puppy. If you’re walking he’ll let you take a few steps, then he’ll block you until he gets some petting lol. And they’re the same as far as teaching them any “tricks”, not gonna do it.

Ours have a ferocious bark and they let strangers know that they’re on the wrong place. Until you say their name, then they’re fine.

Thanks for the info. I’ll look around and see if I can locate some locally!

[Boji]

First off, I hate the puppy mill/backyard breeders that are only in it for the money. And the pet stores that sell these dogs.
A grass roots organization fighting this was founded in Iowa [url][https://bailingoutbenji.com//url]
2nd, I have never owned a "pit bull" but have had nothing but good experiences when I have been around them Same for Rottweilers and GP.

Many of a breeds traits can be changed, for better or worse, by circumstances and owners actions. I could give examples of that with the last 4 dogs I've owned.

[Steve Warden]

Many of a breeds traits can be changed, for better or worse, by circumstances and owners actions.

I agree. Often times it's more a case of a bad owner than it is a bad dog.

[Loose Arrow]

Many of a breeds traits can be changed, for better or worse, by circumstances and owners actions.

I agree. Often times it's more a case of a bad owner than it is a bad dog.

Traits can not be changed. This is patently false. "It's in how you raise them" is the absolute most dangerous way of thinking. Rhetoric. When it comes to man-biters, a bonafide APBT is by far the safest dog to handle, whether the people on here would like to admit it or not. The fact is that mixed breeds are the most unstable. They are easily intimidated. Curs. Everyone likes to make excuses for their pound dog's behavior towards humans, for the American Pit Bull Terrier there is no excuse, period. That's responsibility. Animal rescue, "adopt don't shop" is nothing more than people trying to virtue signal how good they think they are. What they won't admit is or try to understand is that their disregard for breed Standards is what perpetuates the puppy mill cycle. Who wants an unstable, unpredictable dog? Just look at Sleepy bunker Joe Briben's dog! Perfect example. He's already bit two people! Did they just happen to raise him wrong? No. It's an unpredictable mutt who was bred without Standards by some backyard breeder who got flushed out into a shelter to be adopted by "good people". Mixed breeds are not "part this or part that", they're simply Mixed. Don't attach yourself to what you think or want it to be, just recognize what you have and don't believe the hyperbole that it's "how you raise them". Reputable breeders are of the utmost importance yet they're chastised by people who have no inkling into what it takes to maintain Standards. I encourage everyone to throw a stone, let's have a quality discussion.

[Steve Warden]

Many of a breeds traits can be changed, for better or worse, by circumstances and owners actions.

I agree. Often times it's more a case of a bad owner than it is a bad dog.

Traits can not be changed. This is patently false. "It's in how you raise them" is the absolute most dangerous way of thinking. Rhetoric. When it comes to man-biters, a bonafide APBT is by far the safest dog to handle, whether the people on here would like to admit it or not. The fact is that mixed breeds are the most unstable. They are easily intimidated. Curs. Everyone likes to make excuses for their pound dog's behavior towards humans, for the American Pit Bull Terrier there is no excuse, period. That's responsibility. Animal rescue, "adopt don't shop" is nothing more than people trying to virtue signal how good they think they are. What they won't admit is or understand is that they perpetuate the puppy mill cycle. Quality breeders are of the utmost importance yet they're chastised by people who have no inkling. I encourage everyone to throw a stone, let's have a quality conversation.

So I shall change my statement to imply "behavior", instead of "traits".

[Loose Arrow]

So I shall change my statement to imply "behavior", instead of "traits".

We can attempt to teach any dog to learn many different behaviors but traits are a prepotent set of behaviors that can not be taught or changed.

[Mumbleypeg]

I agree, an otherwise good dog can be ruined by a bad owner. Or a neglectful owner. Even a well bred and well trained dog will lapse into bad habits if training learned is not reinforced. I don’t mean behaviors like biting or aggressiveness (although those can be the result of poor socialization or mistreatment). I’m talking about learned obedience behaviors like sit, heel, etc.

Once learned, a little routine maintenance work with the dog to reinforce the learned behaviors does wonders. When my grandkids were young they wanted to put our dogs “through their paces”. After they left it usually took me several lessons to correct the damage. Now that they’re older the kids have been trained too, on how to work with the dogs.

Ken

[Loose Arrow]

I agree, an otherwise good dog can be ruined by a bad owner. Or a neglectful owner. Even a well bred and well trained dog will lapse into bad habits if training learned is not reinforced. I don’t mean behaviors like biting or aggressiveness (although those can be the result of poor socialization or mistreatment). I’m talking about learned obedience behaviors like sit, heel, etc.

Once learned, a little routine maintenance work with the dog to reinforce the learned behaviors does wonders. When my grandkids were young they wanted to put our dogs “through their paces”. After they left it usually took me several lessons to correct the damage. Now that they’re older the kids have been trained too, on how to work with the dogs.

Ken

I appreciate your insight, thanks.

[Boji]

Many of a breeds traits can be changed, for better or worse, by circumstances and owners actions.

I agree. Often times it's more a case of a bad owner than it is a bad dog.

Traits can not be changed. This is patently false. "It's in how you raise them" is the absolute most dangerous way of thinking. Rhetoric. When it comes to man-biters, a bonafide APBT is by far the safest dog to handle, whether the people on here would like to admit it or not. The fact is that mixed breeds are the most unstable. They are easily intimidated. Curs. Everyone likes to make excuses for their pound dog's behavior towards humans, for the American Pit Bull Terrier there is no excuse, period. That's responsibility. Animal rescue, "adopt don't shop" is nothing more than people trying to virtue signal how good they think they are. What they won't admit is or try to understand is that their disregard for breed Standards is what perpetuates the puppy mill cycle. Who wants an unstable dog, unpredictable dog? Just look at Sleepy Joe Briben's dog! Perfect example. He's already bit two people! Did they just happen to raise him wrong? No. It's an unpredictable mutt who was bred without Standards by some backyard breeder who got flushed out into a shelter to be adopted by "good people". Mixed breeds are not "part this or part that", they're simply Mixed. Don't attach yourself to what you think or want it to be, just recognize what you have and don't believe the hyperbole that it's "how you raise them". Reputable breeders are of the utmost importance yet they're chastised by people who have no inkling what it takes to maintain Standards. I encourage everyone to throw a stone, let's have a quality conversation.

Wrong choice of words when I said that traits could be changed. Traits can be encouraged or suppressed.
Some of your comments in the quoted post lead me to believe that you feel every shelter, rescue, mixed breed dog (curs, as you so kindly called them) should be killed.
A little passive aggressive there?
Yes, reputable breeders have their place to continue the blood lines of registered breeds. But where does that leave the person/family that can't afford the price which is often in the thousands of dollars?
I can't speak for all rescues and shelters but the local ones I'm familiar with all dogs (and cats) are neutered prior to adoption to help stop the cycle of unchecked breeding.

[Loose Arrow]

Wrong choice of words when I said that traits could be changed. Traits can be encouraged or suppressed.
Some of your comments in the quoted post lead me to believe that you feel every shelter, rescue, mixed breed dog (curs, as you so kindly called them) should be killed.
A little passive aggressive there?
Yes, reputable breeders have their place to continue the blood lines of registered breeds. But where does that leave the person/family that can't afford the price which is often in the thousands of dollars?
I can't speak for all rescues and shelters but the local ones I'm familiar with all dogs (and cats) are neutered prior to adoption to help stop the cycle of unchecked breeding.

Are you purposely mincing my words? I said cur NOT cull.

Unchecked breeding - BY BACKYARD BREEDERS WHO FILL THE DEMAND FOR "CHEAP" DOGS.

- This selfish demand fuels the supply.

Want less mutts in shelters? Want more stable dogs? Or do you just want them to be cheap? Seems to me that is your only concern.

[jmh58]

Squirt and Smokey planning escape!!
John

[Boji]

Wrong choice of words when I said that traits could be changed. Traits can be encouraged or suppressed.
Some of your comments in the quoted post lead me to believe that you feel every shelter, rescue, mixed breed dog (curs, as you so kindly called them) should be killed.
A little passive aggressive there?
Yes, reputable breeders have their place to continue the blood lines of registered breeds. But where does that leave the person/family that can't afford the price which is often in the thousands of dollars?
I can't speak for all rescues and shelters but the local ones I'm familiar with all dogs (and cats) are neutered prior to adoption to help stop the cycle of unchecked breeding.

Are you purposely mincing my words? I said cur NOT cull.

Unchecked breeding - BY BACKYARD BREEDERS WHO FILL THE DEMAND FOR "CHEAP" DOGS.

- This selfish demand fuels the supply.

Want less mutts in shelters? Want more stable dogs? Or do you just want them to be cheap? Seems to me that is your only concern.

Waiting to hear what you propose to do with the millions of dogs currently held in shelters and rescues?

[Loose Arrow]

Are you purposely mincing my words? I said cur NOT cull.

Unchecked breeding - BY BACKYARD BREEDERS WHO FILL THE DEMAND FOR "CHEAP" DOGS.

- This selfish demand fuels the supply.

Want less mutts in shelters? Want more stable dogs? Or do you just want them to be cheap? Seems to me that is your only concern.

Waiting to hear what you propose to do with the millions of dogs currently held in shelters and rescues?

I just did. Let me highlight my concern.

Here's an old Spanish mantra that may help articulate what it sounds like to me when a person says they want something cheap;

"Lo que no cuesta, se hace fiesta."

This figuratively translates to;

The things that don't cost us anything are the things we disregard most.

[Boji]

Are you purposely mincing my words? I said cur NOT cull.

Unchecked breeding - BY BACKYARD BREEDERS WHO FILL THE DEMAND FOR "CHEAP" DOGS.

- This selfish demand fuels the supply.

Want less mutts in shelters? Want more stable dogs? Or do you just want them to be cheap? Seems to me that is your only concern.

Waiting to hear what you propose to do with the millions of dogs currently held in shelters and rescues?

I just did. Let me highlight my concern.

Here's an old Spanish mantra that may help articulate what it sounds like to me when a person says they want something cheap;

"Lo que no cuesta, se hace fiesta."

This figuratively translates to;

The things that don't cost us anything are the things we disregard first and most.

Obviously you won't/can't answer a straight forward question.
No reason for me to continue this discussion.
Carry on.

[Loose Arrow]

Obviously you won't/can't answer a straight forward question.
No reason for me to continue this discussion.
Carry on.

Says the person who deflects everything.

...but you are right about one thing, "No reason for me to continue this discussion."

As you can't articulate your positions. Debating is not easy for those who do it with their feelings.

[KLJ77]

I was going to relate my story & experience I had with rescuing a GSD that was 4 years old and what it took to gain his trust. But now, I'm not so sure I want to get into a "debate" about whether I did things right, wrong or indifferent.

LA...from reading this thread, I can tell you are very educated and experienced with handling dogs, training, knowledge of their temperaments, etc., etc. However, your aggressiveness toward relating to what others say or feel about a particular K-9 topic appears to have turned off several members.

I get what YOU'RE relating to and how YOU understand dogs, but for the most part, you're also responding to 90% of other's comments like they're some kind of 'dumbed down' dog owners and only you are qualified in making sure everyone becomes as smart & educated as you are about dogs. Thats how I interpret your comments anyway. The average dog owner on here doesn't want to debate dog behaviors or get into a long drawn out condescending conversations. This thread is about 'pets'...family pets. Okay...I understand some people asked you particular questions, and you were trying to answer them according to your expertise, but It's not about the knowledge you were presenting, it's the way you are delivering the message.

You don't need to verbalize in a condescending manner. People very much appreciate what you have to say and how you can educate them, but don't treat them like they're stupid, ignorant or uneducated just because they are not at your level of expertise.

I really do respect your knowledge about dogs. Please respect our lack of knowledge...and how we love our pets just as much as you do.

Off my rant...

[Steve Warden]

However, your aggressiveness toward relating to what others say or feel about a particular K-9 topic appears to have turned off several members.

Thats how I interpret your comments anyway.

I agree with your interpretation.

Signed ~ a turned off member.