pinning the springs in place without breaking scales

[beresman]

I've built a kit knife, and re-handled a couple of knives with glued on scales (after cracking scales a couple of times). I was given some advice on how to keep from breaking scales when pinning them, and decided it was time to try it again.

This Westaco knife came to me with no scales and was dirty as all get out. I took it apart and cleaned it, and after working on a few other little projects decided to try to assemble the handles the "right" way. The material is another Jantz product, their "Malachite". It's harder and tighter than the acrylic I had used before, so I was hopeful.

I got the scales pinned to the liners just great, but when I went to drive the pin for the spring pivot, I cracked the scales around the pin hole. I used a compressor which I bought from Orvet here on AAPK, which worked pretty well. I tapped the pin as gently as I could, but still got chipping. I got some of the larger pieces and used superglue to put it back together, but doggone it! It went so well up to that point...

So do I drill out the holes in the scale a couple thousandths bigger? I'm flummoxed. The knife will still work, of course, and it's be an EDC for me, but I want something I can show off without making disclaimers...

[herbva]

Yes, I either drill out the rocker pin hole in the scales a tad larger, or I just use a tapered reamer that I use to taper the the other pin holes. Also, the rocker pin hole doesn't need to be quite as tight a fit as the holes for the bolster pins. If you peen the rocker pin heads, which I like to do, you need a larger hole in the scales because the peening will expand the ends of the rocker pin a bit. The main thing is you want the pressure of holding the spring loaded and in place to be on the metal liners, not on the scales, because they will crack or break, like in your pictures.

[Meridian_Mike]

It takes doing some and making a few mistakes. You need to develop "touch" so you won't over peen the pin.
Just like the blade pivot pin. If you over peen the pivot pin, the pin will start to "fatten up" inside the bolster and bind the blade hole.
I peen one side of the pin before I install it, then carefully peen the other side after I stick it thru the hole.
I then try to peen a little and check to see how the head is "mushrooming". I want it to just make firm contact with the cover. That way, you won't get the "wedge effect" when the pin starts to fatten up and crack the cover.

The reason the liner pins don't crack the cover is because you insert a pin in from the cover side with a head peened on it.
Then, your hammer work is done on the inside of the liner.

That is just my method.
Right or wrong.

[beresman]

I didn't think about the pressure of the pivot pin by itself causing a problem, but it makes sense. As for peening, I used a countersink bit to create the smallest amount of countersink in the scales. That seemed to work OK on the liner pins for me (but my tapping was MUCH gentler than I had to do to get the rocker pin in). Had I got the pin in without a problem, I think I could have peened it OK...But I first have to get the pin in OK.

Your suggestions give me something to think about, thanks!

Brent

[wiseguy]

Nothing more discouraging then that! For what it`s worth, i anneal my pin stock to soften , heat till just past red and let air cool. try not to hit the pin dead on or it will swell the pin diameter, glance it with the hammer to peen.

[ea42]

Brent,

First make sure your pin fits through the hole in the liners. I'm assuming the liner holes might be .086 or thereabouts? If that's the case I generally use a .084 to .086 pin. It definitely helps to make the holes in the covers a bit larger, but don't increase the liner hole size. Put a stop on your bit so it stops just before it contacts the liner. I usually make the cover holes two sizes larger than the pin, for example if the pin is .086 it requires a #44 drill which I'll initally use to drill through both the cover and the liner hole. Then I'll set up the stop with a #42 drill (.093) and drill through the covers up to but not through the liners. I wouldn't go any more than one or two sizes larger on that hole or it just gets too wide.
Do countersink the holes in the covers as well with at least a 60 degree countersink. I make my own with a far steeper angle, you'd be surprise how far down the pin expands when you peen.

Make sure you use nickel silver or brass pins, don't use stainless. It takes too much pounding on stainless to flare the ends. Make a nice long point on your pin to help guide it into the hole. Another important thing is to make sure all your holes line up before you put the pin through. On a stockman especially the spring for the sheepsfoot/pen blade combo is free floating, so you may have to monkey it around a bit to get the spring hole in line. I take a long stainless pin (since it's harder and smoother) and put a really long point on it, then put the knife together with the springs compressed and try to fit that pin into the hole. If you can't get it through with some light taps you need to make some adjustments, either to said spring or how far you springs are compressed in order to get it to fit fairly easily. It may take a few tries of tapping it through and tapping it out and then adjusting before everything is satisfactory. At that point you can install the permanent pin without any problems.
If things don't line up and you're really hammering on that pin to get it through it's likely either going to bend and crack the covers or it'll lodge against the opposite liner or spring and your hammering will flex that liner out causing the non-flexible covers to crack. You also have a great risk of shearing the pin against whatever is holding it back resulting in a gap due to metal pieces lodged against the liners, so it's really important that there's little resistance on that pin. It should slide through with just light taps.
I hope that all makes sense, it's a lot harder to explain it than to actually do it. Like with everything else there's a learning curve you have to go through before everything falls into place.

Eric

[orvet]

Brent,
You mentioned you were using the spring compressor that you got from me. I have done exactly the same thing until I figured out that it is possible to press the springs so far inward that it was creating drag on the opposite side of the pen hole. I try to go at least .003" to .008" oversized on the rocker pin hole.

I look down through the top of the knife when I aligning the springs and the liners with the spring compressor. I have a small flexible neck flashlight I shine up through the rocker pin hole to be sure that I have not tightened the spring compressor too far and narrowed the hole from the other side.

If I have done everything properly and the knife frame & springs themselves are not twisted, I can usually push the pin into the hole with my fingers. Of course I taper the end of the pin going in the hole on my belt sander first looks like a nail going in. If I have to bang on a pin to get it to go through the handles, liners and springs, then the chances are good I made a mistake somewhere. Perhaps I mis-measured the size of the pin, (it is not uncommon to have .002" to .003" variation in diameter from the same batch pin stock), or the mis-measured the hole, or I have somehow messed up the procedure.

I find a bigger Hammer is rarely the answer when it comes to knife repair, but it may help some when forging, if you have the guns to swing it.

[beresman]

Thanks, fellas, this is really helpful stuff.

The pins are from .078" stock (which just clears the holes in the springs and blades), and I used a 5/64" drill, which is basically a snug fit. I have a .080" drill and a .085" (if I can believe my calipers), so next time I use this pin size, I'll go with one of those for the covers. And yes, I figured on keeping the holes in the liner as they were if I can. I suspect that it was just those holes in the covers being too tight a fit that was my biggest problem.

I did try to ensure that the holes were perfectly lined up, and yes, that floating spring was a bit of an issue. I thought I had it right, but perhaps not. Using a small flashlight to backlight the hole is a good idea and something I should do next time as well.

Live and learn! I have more of that material, but I haven't decided whether to start the same knife over or to use it on something different. Probably something different; if I mess the same knife up worse I'll *really* be mad...

Brent

[muskrat man]

You're attempting to use one of the most brittle handle materials available. Even I have only successfully pinned one reconstituted stone handle and I swore I'd never do another. It doesn't matter how well your pin matches or how you chamfer the hole, that pin has pressure against it (unlike the scale pins) it's going to chip out unless the pin is not touching the reconstituted stone. The only way you might get it to work is to counterbore the hole in the handle material with a slightly larger bit then peen a round head on the pin. I'd rather try to put a pin in glass.

[orvet]

You're attempting to use one of the most brittle handle materials available. Even I have only successfully pinned one reconstituted stone handle and I swore I'd never do another. It doesn't matter how well your pin matches or how you chamfer the hole, that pin has pressure against it (unlike the scale pins) it's going to chip out unless the pin is not touching the reconstituted stone. The only way you might get it to work is to counterbore the hole in the handle material with a slightly larger bit then peen a round head on the pin. I'd rather try to put a pin in glass.

Kaleb is absolutely correct.
I avoid using reconstituted stone handle material like the plague. The only time I have been consistently successful in using it is using a partial piece pinned & glued to the liner but with a much tougher material at the rocker hole such as stag, bone or micarta. In other words using it as a band or as a diagonal stripe on a handle.
Like Kaleb said, I think I have successfully re-handle the pocketknife with this only once or twice in 15 years. It is probably the most brittle material on the market, as far as I'm concerned.

[ea42]

Wow guys I had no idea that was reconstituted stone. I thought it was some kind of acrylic, shows how much I know!
Guess I won't be going near that with a ten foot pole.

Beresman try some micarta or kirinite, they're both very tough (as in not brittle) and forgiving. Lots of choices for each too.

Eric

[beresman]

Part of me wants to say, "Well, I don't feel so bad, now let's move on"...and part of me wants to say, "Challenge accepted!" Hmmm...