True split back knives

[djknife13]

Here's one of the splits. ____Dave

[carrmillus]

...this is really interesting, my grandfather had a split spring whittler and all he ever carried were Camillus knives, so I've always wondered if it was a Camillus. have never been able to find out what happened to his knives after he died??......... .............

[ratlesnake75]

Very Interesting!!
I put your Split spring next to mine & Thank you for the Extra pics. Cool huh! Lots of similarities
Kindest Regards,
Mark

[djknife13]

Thanks Mark. Your picture kind of makes my knife look a little bland which of course it actually is. My picture didn't help either. Your knife is just plain prettier and I suspect your camera is a lot better than mine, or I need to learn how to use mine. I love seeing and learning about these old survivors. ____Dave

[ratlesnake75]

Thanks Mr. Dave for all the wonderful compliments! Believe it or not Sir, I was gifted my New Camera just this year by a Wonderful Gentleman named "Mr. Dan Watts" a Knife guy at heart whom is 80yrs old or so. I helped him sell his personal knife collection earlier this year. He had a Remington Bullet & Case knife collection & is an Amazing Gentlemen. Here's the quick untold story & Honest to God's Truth.

Mr. Watts retired President & CEO of Montana Rail Link ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-watts-542868170) tried to sell a few knives on ebay & I purchased one of them. Well he sent me a knife that wasnt the one pictured. I tried to contact him several times to get things straight but no answer at all. So I just left him a "Negative" feedback & went on about my way. I guess that didnt sit well with him so after a few days, I finally got a message from him saying he is OLD & The Ebay thing is NEW to him & he is having difficulties figuring things out. At this point, I had no idea who he actually was at all & I just wanted to help The old man out. Come to find out he sure was telling the truth & that Computers are a touchy thing for old folks like him to navigate their way thru. I helped him fix the negative feedback to a positive one & He sent me his phone# and we talked quite a bit & became friends. I ended up selling his collection & within 4mos or so he went into a nursing home. He wrote me a letter last month with a new phone# and its been difficult trying to reach him right now. I will be making it a priority to write him back or get ahold of his wife so we can talk again. He was having to wear a full time catheter while trying to sell knives on ebay so his wife wouldnt have to deal with them after he passes. I felt so awful to hear such misery coming from such a Nice Person, It just breaks my heart to even think about it. Anyways, He asked me one day on the phone what camera I used to take pictures & I told him I had a $35-50 camera that I been using for MANY years & its on its last leg. He told me he had an Extra Sony $300 camera he would send too me for helping me get rid of the knives. I feel Blessed sometimes meeting guys like him as they are True Hero's too me, You just never hear of them or their good deeds.
Kindest Regards,
Mark

[Case XX 6383]

Like these?

[djknife13]

Nope. Those are sometimes referred to as split back but actually have two separate springs that meet on one side with a spacer between them. A true split back has only one spring (one single piece of metal) that is split part or most of the way like a wishbone or a slingshot, only the legs are together. See the pictures above. ____Dave

[kootenay joe]

Mark, nice story of you and the old fellow. You have a big heart and i know this fellow is not the first person you have gone out of your way to help. You put people ahead of money and i admire you for this.
kj

[ratlesnake75]

Mr. Roland, That is so very nice of you Sir & I appreciate that immensely! Anyone who knows me, Knows for a fact that I would give my shirt off my back to them or anyone who needed it. I have met so many Wonderful Gentleman thru old vintage knives & sometimes I wonder if its the people I meet or my passion for antique knives that is God's Plan for me. They seem to go hand in hand!!

For anyone that is on facebook, You should come join our growing group of Wonderful People. I am offering up a free "Antique" knife for a donation to "Toys for Tots" this year. I just created my Group this past week & I hope it will take off so that we can help others in need
The link to our Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1177141782674010/
Happy Holidays Everyone
Mark & Shana

[Pyrian]

Hi there all

A newbie to AAPK, and forums generally, so apologies if I make any mistakes here!

Some very interesting knives in this thread. I have been collecting knives for several years but the whole idea of split springs is completely new to me.
I've just acquired this rather interesting knife with two blades but just one split back spring, which I find really intriguing and which brought me to this thread.

I'm fairly sure the marking on the main blade is V (crown) R, but haven't been able to decipher the wording under it. The pen blade has ? (crown) R PATENT on it. So I have no idea of the maker, but am assume it is Sheffield made. The bolsters are integral to the linings. It's a small knife at just 75 mm closed, and very thin. I did wonder if the split spring was there to achieve this thinness?

I scoured through the catalogues I have access to from the 19th century for any kind of match to my knife but couldn’t find anything. The closest I could find was in Smiths Key, which obviously predates my knife - pattern number 381.

Can anybody cast any light either on my knife, or the whole subject of split back springs? Particularly interested in when this process might date to, and also if anyone recognises the marking on my knife and can match it to a clearer example!

Thank you

Smiths Key 381

[Mumbleypeg]

Welcome to AAPK, and congratulations on finding a rare knife. From your pictures it does indeed appear to have a single backspring, partially split. Sorry I can’t help you with identification of the maker but there are some here much more knowledgeable than me who may know.

Regarding the subject of split back springs, many believe these started as two individual pieces that were then forged together at one end. However I have seen at least one which appears to have been sawn part way, leaving a space (kerf). A search here on AAPK will find numerous posts on the topic. search.php?keywords=Split+backspring&te ... mit=Search. You will have to sort out those which are about the more common current-day knives having two backsprings separated by a tapered spacer, but still referred to as split backsprings.

Ken

[Pyrian]

Many thanks Ken - I was delighted when I found it, but a little frustrated with the marks!

- bit off topic but can't find any instructions on 'tagging' people in a post. Is this possible, or do I just reply as I have here?

Thanks again

Pyrian

[Mumbleypeg]

- bit off topic but can't find any instructions on 'tagging' people in a post. Is this possible, or do I just reply as I have here?

Thanks again

Pyrian

Not sure what you mean by tagging. Responding directly to a post as you have done is common here. Think of it as a conversation among friends. If you wish to quote another post, click on the quotation mark in the upper right of the post you want to quote. Any time you’re unsure about how to do something, see the AAPK Tips and Tricks subforum. viewforum.php?f=98 And if you can’t find what you need there, just start a new post there with your question.

We’re generally a pretty loose bunch and interested in all things sharp, so don’t worry too much about “rules”, especially when you’re new here. After a bit you’ll have things figured out. Jump in and start posting - ask and answer questions.

Ken

[Ripster]

Thanks Mr. Dave for all the wonderful compliments! Believe it or not Sir, I was gifted my New Camera just this year by a Wonderful Gentleman named "Mr. Dan Watts" a Knife guy at heart whom is 80yrs old or so. I helped him sell his personal knife collection earlier this year. He had a Remington Bullet & Case knife collection & is an Amazing Gentlemen. Here's the quick untold story & Honest to God's Truth.

Mr. Watts retired President & CEO of Montana Rail Link ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-watts-542868170) tried to sell a few knives on ebay & I purchased one of them. Well he sent me a knife that wasnt the one pictured. I tried to contact him several times to get things straight but no answer at all. So I just left him a "Negative" feedback & went on about my way. I guess that didnt sit well with him so after a few days, I finally got a message from him saying he is OLD & The Ebay thing is NEW to him & he is having difficulties figuring things out. At this point, I had no idea who he actually was at all & I just wanted to help The old man out. Come to find out he sure was telling the truth & that Computers are a touchy thing for old folks like him to navigate their way thru. I helped him fix the negative feedback to a positive one & He sent me his phone# and we talked quite a bit & became friends. I ended up selling his collection & within 4mos or so he went into a nursing home. He wrote me a letter last month with a new phone# and its been difficult trying to reach him right now. I will be making it a priority to write him back or get ahold of his wife so we can talk again. He was having to wear a full time catheter while trying to sell knives on ebay so his wife wouldnt have to deal with them after he passes. I felt so awful to hear such misery coming from such a Nice Person, It just breaks my heart to even think about it. Anyways, He asked me one day on the phone what camera I used to take pictures & I told him I had a $35-50 camera that I been using for MANY years & its on its last leg. He told me he had an Extra Sony $300 camera he would send too me for helping me get rid of the knives. I feel Blessed sometimes meeting guys like him as they are True Hero's too me, You just never hear of them or their good deeds.
Kindest Regards,
Mark

Mark, just read this and need to say, THANK YOU ,for helping this gentleman out. And like you have found some really awesome people thru knife collecting. And now back too topic. So, has it been determined it is 1(one) spring ,truly split? Also as was asked what time frame would this have been.
Sincerely JP

[Pyrian]

- bit off topic but can't find any instructions on 'tagging' people in a post. Is this possible, or do I just reply as I have here?

Thanks again

Pyrian

Not sure what you mean by tagging. Responding directly to a post as you have done is common here. Think of it as a conversation among friends. If you wish to quote another post, click on the quotation mark in the upper right of the post you want to quote. Any time you’re unsure about how to do something, see the AAPK Tips and Tricks subforum. viewforum.php?f=98 And if you can’t find what you need there, just start a new post there with your question.

We’re generally a pretty loose bunch and interested in all things sharp, so don’t worry too much about “rules”, especially when you’re new here. After a bit you’ll have things figured out. Jump in and start posting - ask and answer questions.

Ken

Thanks Ken - superb answer - I wanted to know how to answer someone specifically within the topic/post - the 'quote' thing is what I was after. Have read the FAQs and will check out the Tips & Tricks.

[LongBlade]

Hi there all

A newbie to AAPK, and forums generally, so apologies if I make any mistakes here!

Some very interesting knives in this thread. I have been collecting knives for several years but the whole idea of split springs is completely new to me.
I've just acquired this rather interesting knife with two blades but just one split back spring, which I find really intriguing and which brought me to this thread.

I'm fairly sure the marking on the main blade is V (crown) R, but haven't been able to decipher the wording under it. The pen blade has ? (crown) R PATENT on it. So I have no idea of the maker, but am assume it is Sheffield made. The bolsters are integral to the linings. It's a small knife at just 75 mm closed, and very thin. I did wonder if the split spring was there to achieve this thinness?

I scoured through the catalogues I have access to from the 19th century for any kind of match to my knife but couldn’t find anything. The closest I could find was in Smiths Key, which obviously predates my knife - pattern number 381.

Can anybody cast any light either on my knife, or the whole subject of split back springs? Particularly interested in when this process might date to, and also if anyone recognises the marking on my knife and can match it to a clearer example!

Thank you

Ivory V crown R Split Spring (1).jpg
Ivory V crown R Split Spring (2).jpg
Ivory V crown R Split Spring (3).jpg
Ivory V crown R Split Spring (4).jpg
Ivory V crown R Split Spring (5).jpg

Smiths Key 381

381 Smiths Key 1816.jpg

Welcome Pyrian and nice old knife indeed ... it is similar, but not an exact match, to the small old jack with split spring I posted on the 1st page of this thread 4th post down... Your knife looks to be reminiscent of a horticultural pattern by the master blade style (perhaps the use of mine as well given a sheep foot blade but mine is only 2 & 1/8" which makes me think more of a desk knife but not sure) .. I can't make out the makers stamp on your knife blade (if it is a makers name and not a slogan) but no doubt looks very much like the pattern in Smith's guide as you noted.. Just out of curiosity are the liners integral with the bolster on your knife (ie one piece) ? According to Levines integral bolsters were phased out by 1860 though I think a few makers made them afterwards.. As an aside but related to your knife - I have an old quill (not split spring but similar quill knives are in Smiths 1816 guide as well) with a similar stamp but it is GcrownR/Patent (King George IV - 1820-1827) - perhaps abit earlier than yours (VcrownR being Queen Victoria - 1837-1901)... and as I understand from researching it the maker received a royal warrant and associated patent rights to the knife... But the quill knife has no makers name either - same as your blade stamp.. interesting - Anyway very nice find given the split spring knives are more on the rare side and thanks for sharing it!! ..

Here's the the old quill knife and stamp just as reference -

[Pyrian]

Welcome Pyrian and nice old knife indeed ... it is similar, but not an exact match, to the small old jack with split spring I posted on the 1st page of this thread 4th post down... Your knife looks to be reminiscent of a horticultural pattern by the master blade style (perhaps the use of mine as well given a sheep foot blade but mine is only 2 & 1/8" which makes me think more of a desk knife but not sure) .. I can't make out the makers stamp on your knife blade (if it is a makers name and not a slogan) but no doubt looks very much like the pattern in Smith's guide as you noted.. Just out of curiosity are the liners integral with the bolster on your knife (ie one piece) ? According to Levines integral bolsters were phased out by 1860 though I think a few makers made them afterwards.. As an aside but related to your knife - I have an old quill (not split spring but similar quill knives are in Smiths 1816 guide as well) with a similar stamp but it is GcrownR/Patent (King George IV - 1820-1827) - perhaps abit earlier than yours (VcrownR being Queen Victoria - 1837-1901)... and as I understand from researching it the maker received a royal warrant and associated patent rights to the knife... But the quill knife has no makers name either - same as your blade stamp.. interesting - Anyway very nice find given the split spring knives are more on the rare side and thanks for sharing it!! ..

Here's the the old quill knife and stamp just as reference -

Blade Open DSCN0284.JPG

Tang Stamp DSCN0310.JPG

Thank you Lee for the very useful info, & what a beautiful quill knife! I hope one day to find one that old.

I think the bolsters are integral on my knife - sometimes I find it hard to be absolutely sure, even with a magnifying glass. Most knives I have it's really clear that they are not, as the liners are really distinctly separate, with clear joins, but I have a few British military knives dating late 19th c. and one pattern 6353 dating 1905-1938 where I am really not so sure - I can't find any joins, which has cast doubt in my mind on my ability to tell! Either they were still doing it that late, or some bolsters were joined extremely well.
I have a feeling my knife is more of a desk knife too. It feels like the intention with the split spring was to make it very thin, and it does feel more office than horticulture, but I could be wrong.
I don't know if the mark on the blade is a makers name or not. Someone on another platform suggested it could say WARRANTED, which would fit, space-wise. So frustrating when a knife has markings, but no makers mark/name! I don't really understand the Royal Warrant marks with no name - it seems to be contrary, but I know there are many other examples of that out there such as your knife too and who knows what the intention was.

Thanks again!

Pyrian

[kootenay joe]

Pyrian, what a GREAT old knife you have posted. I am envious and would love to have such a fine old example of top vintage Sheffield craftsmanship.
What is known so far is: British, ivory handles, split spring & integral bolsters.
I think the split spring was not to try to make it thinner. I think it was what the cutler did when the knife he was making was to have 2 (or 3) blades.
My guess as to age is early 1800's.
I'm sure you have already figured out all this. I'm just summing up what is known.
Are you in UK ? If so, can you find any more ?
kj

[eveled]

Pyrian that is a super cool knife. Thanks for posting it. It looks to be similar to a LoomFixer pattern. (It’s about an inch short) Which to me makes it even cooler because it is the oldest one I’ve ever seen. I’d love to see a picture of it next to a Case LoomFixer. Welcome to the forum. .

See this thread for info on LoomFixers, and please post it there as well

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67836

An English split spring baby LoomFixer? Too cool!

[Pyrian]

Pyrian, what a GREAT old knife you have posted. I am envious and would love to have such a fine old example of top vintage Sheffield craftsmanship.
What is known so far is: British, ivory handles, split spring & integral bolsters.
I think the split spring was not to try to make it thinner. I think it was what the cutler did when the knife he was making was to have 2 (or 3) blades.
My guess as to age is early 1800's.
I'm sure you have already figured out all this. I'm just summing up what is known.
Are you in UK ? If so, can you find any more ?
kj

Many thanks KJ !

I am in UK and if I do find out any more, will post it here. Love knives like this where I have the chance to learn more.

[Pyrian]

Pyrian that is a super cool knife. Thanks for posting it. It looks to be similar to a LoomFixer pattern. (It’s about an inch short) Which to me makes it even cooler because it is the oldest one I’ve ever seen. I’d love to see a picture of it next to a Case LoomFixer. Welcome to the forum. .

See this thread for info on LoomFixers, and please post it there as well

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67836

An English split spring baby LoomFixer? Too cool!

Many thanks eveled! Thank you for the link to the LoomFixers thread - I'd never heard of that pattern (even though I own one - a RR Coal Miner.) Great looking knives.

In the UK mills we had a similar trade called a Tackler - equipped with 'Tackler Knife' - a rugged knife with a single, thick-backed Wharncliffe blade. Won't post pictures as don't want to go off topic.

My knife does bear an uncanny resemblance but is quite a bit smaller (- love the term baby LoomFixer!) My money still on it being a desk or small horticulture knife - based mainly on the similar one in Smith's Key being called a Penknife, and it doesn't feel quite strong enough for tougher jobs. I know they used to have quill knives with quite a variety of blades. Still open to any possibility though.

Pyrian

[kootenay joe]

Pyrian, 'going off topic' is fine here. Often threads wander a bit but always new and interesting information gets posted. Wandering threads can be some of the best threads.
kj

[Pyrian]

Thank you KJ - much appreciated - still learning the forum etiquette

[eveled]

The Baby LoomFixer and the Tackler Knife would fit well in the LoomFixer thread if you don’t want to post it here. I’d love to see a picture of it. Thanks for sharing.

Posts like yours are what make me come back day after day. Just when you think you’ve seen it all, something cool pops up.

[Pyrian]

Thanks again eveled - I have several Tackler pattern knives - will try over next few days when I have time to take some pictures and post them up