A question about celluloid and "gassing"!

[Madmarco]

Hey guys! I was wondering if someone could please explain to me about celluloid scales deteriorating and causing damage to other knives around it. I've been reading about it lately on this forum, and I'm in the dark as to what it's about. Also, what is "gassing"? Thanks, Mark!

[eveled]

Celluloid is a plastic made from chemicals. It turns out it is only stable for a random time. Nobody knows why or when but one day the clock stops and the chemical begin to release into the air. The chemicals are corrosive to metal. So it eats the knife. If in an enclosed space with or even close to another knife it will eat that one too.

[Madmarco]

WOW! Thanks Eveled! Makes you wonder why anyone would use this material for scales, even cheap ones. From what you're telling me it would stand to reason that the release of chemicals is the "gassing", or...?

[Steve Warden]

it would stand to reason that the release of chemicals is the "gassing",

Yup.

[Madmarco]

Thanks Steve!

[cody6268]

I always thought most knives made relatively recently (1990s and later) had acrylic, and not celluloid handles, but nope. Some still did. Buck Creeks are modern knives that are especially bad for outgassing celluloid. I recently had a Buck Creek from 1994 go bad. I got the scales off right as it got started. Slight surface rust around the liners on the blades, and tarnished bolsters, liners, and shield.

And here's the thing. The knife spent years stashed in Jeep glovebox. My Granddad found it (Jeep and knife was his brother's, which my Granddad bought), it spent years stashed in a junk drawer. I ended up with it, carrying it a little, storing it on a shelf on a bookcase where I could watch it in case of outgassing. About two months ago, I stashed it in a storage drawer. I noticed the outgassing two weeks ago, and that's when I pried the scales off. I wonder if the cheap drawer liner in the storage possibly had some VOCs or something that set it off?

[Madmarco]

Thanks Cody! I have a few that I thought were acrylic, but they may be celluloid so I'll have to stay on top of those.

[Colonel26]

Some Winchester’s made in the 90’s by Queen we’re celluloid and we’re known to out gas bad as well. Many of the German knives from the 70’s onward were horrible about imploding too. Yet there are pristine examples of celluloid knives well over 100 years old. You pays your money you takes your chances.

[LongBlade]

Hey guys! I was wondering if someone could please explain to me about celluloid scales deteriorating and causing damage to other knives around it. I've been reading about it lately on this forum, and I'm in the dark as to what it's about. Also, what is "gassing"? Thanks, Mark!

Here's a link to an old AAPK thread on celluloid and outgassing that you may find helpful...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54367&p=604427&hili ... id#p604427

[just bob]

There are many good thread in the AAPK forums about celluloid and outgassing. If you just search the forums for outgassing you'll get a lot of information. This is just one of the many that is very interesting.



viewtopic.php?f=4&t=50021&p=530256&hili ... ng#p530256

[Madmarco]

TYVM L.B. and J.B.!

[hardman]

Because we are all focused on the damage celluloid can do when outgassing, you hardly ever hear about another issue. Celluloid is EXTREMELY flammable. I know a knife mechanic that proved this point by rubbing a celluloid handle scale wth some steel wool. Within seconds, it was on fire.

[knife7knut]

Because we are all focused on the damage celluloid can do when outgassing, you hardly ever hear about another issue. Celluloid is EXTREMELY flammable. I know a knife mechanic that proved this point by rubbing a celluloid handle scale wth some steel wool. Within seconds, it was on fire.

Several of the handle materials used on old knives exhibited that characteristic.I was working on an L.F.&C. scout knife once and in grinding down a pin it overheated and set the handles on fire.Actually they were smoldering and emitting a heavy white smoke that was almost impossible to extinguish even when fully submerged in water!It filled my shop(24x36)full of smoke.Here is the result.

[lt632ret]

Celluloid is an early (plastic type material ). it is made from celluose and nitrates. While in itself it is not explosive it is as mentioned quite volatile and flammable. Nitrates as you may know were what was the primary ingredient in the recent explosion in Lebanon. Also it was a primary ingredient in the Okla school bombing. Manure is a form of nitrate. celluose is part of a plant and when combined to make Celluloid the result is a truly enigmatic substance. I once did a magazine article on celluloid. I called it celluloid thou art a woman. The reason I called it that was because it is a substance that may for any reason change its nature . it is both alluring dangerous and unpredictible. Why would anyone want to use such a material for knives the reason is easy it is beautiful it can be in any color and translucent like a gem.( Especially in the last century when modern pastics were unknown).It draws you to it with its beauty. It is like walking into a bar and seeing a beautiful woman who is the consort of the 300 lb bouncer yet you still make a pass at her. The attraction is worth the risk. So that is one side of the comparison. However when the perverbial honeymoon is over you have the down side. Celluloid ( especially early cell ) when manufactured often was not given a correct final rinse. This often acted as a time bomb as the chemical left on top aged. Much again like the opposite sex anything . (to hot, to cold , to light, to dark, you name it can cause it to deteriate and or burst into flame. The worst thing you can do is store it in a closed area (like a box or drawer) This material for any of the above and several other reasons gives off acetyline gas. In a closed area this not only increases the destruction ( like a cancer) on the celluloid but also rusts any exposed metal like a blade. Did you ever see a knife with the top half the blade rusted that was the exposed part when the knife was stored with a gassing cell. it not only destroys itself but all around it ( sound familiar again the reason for my title of the article). Celluloid also may never go bad and last forever. it all depends on its mood and possibly the time of month ( that part is a joke ) .
Some of the old timers from the factorys in Walden would tell me of a great joke the cutlers would pull on new guys when they went to work. They would not explain the propertys of celluloid and it was considered great fun to watch as the newby cutting cell for handles to fast and it would burst into flame in the guys hands. If it was me I would not have found it humorous. All the factorys stored cell outside the factory in separate small buildings ( the cell shed) These buildings had metal hinged roofs so that the wind could blow through dispersing the gas given off. Still the main cause of fires in all these factorys began in the cell sheds. I love celluloid I also have taken some severe beatings in bars. LT

[Steve Warden]

Celluloid is an early (plastic type material ). it is made from celluose and nitrates. While in itself it is not explosive it is as mentioned quite volatile and flammable. Nitrates as you may know were what was the primary ingredient in the recent explosion in Lebanon. Also it was a primary ingredient in the Okla school bombing. Manure is a form of nitrate. celluose is part of a plant and when combined to make Celluloid the result is a truly enigmatic substance. I once did a magazine article on celluloid. I called it celluloid thou art a woman. The reason I called it that was because it is a substance that may for any reason change its nature . it is both alluring dangerous and unpredictible. Why would anyone want to use such a material for knives the reason is easy it is beautiful it can be in any color and translucent like a gem.( Especially in the last century when modern pastics were unknown).It draws you to it with its beauty. It is like walking into a bar and seeing a beautiful woman who is the consort of the 300 lb bouncer yet you still make a pass at her. The attraction is worth the risk. So that is one side of the comparison. However when the perverbial honeymoon is over you have the down side. Celluloid ( especially early cell ) when manufactured often was not given a correct final rinse. This often acted as a time bomb as the chemical left on top aged. Much again like the opposite sex anything . (to hot, to cold , to light, to dark, you name it can cause it to deteriate and or burst into flame. The worst thing you can do is store it in a closed area (like a box or drawer) This material for any of the above and several other reasons gives off acetyline gas. In a closed area this not only increases the destruction ( like a cancer) on the celluloid but also rusts any exposed metal like a blade. Did you ever see a knife with the top half the blade rusted that was the exposed part when the knife was stored with a gassing cell. it not only destroys itself but all around it ( sound familiar again the reason for my title of the article). Celluloid also may never go bad and last forever. it all depends on its mood and possibly the time of month ( that part is a joke ) .
Some of the old timers from the factorys in Walden would tell me of a great joke the cutlers would pull on new guys when they went to work. They would not explain the propertys of celluloid and it was considered great fun to watch as the newby cutting cell for handles to fast and it would burst into flame in the guys hands. If it was me I would not have found it humorous. All the factorys stored cell outside the factory in separate small buildings ( the cell shed) These buildings had metal hinged roofs so that the wind could blow through dispersing the gas given off. Still the main cause of fires in all these factorys began in the cell sheds. I love celluloid I also have taken some severe beatings in bars. LT

Great info, LT!

I love celluloid I also have taken some severe beatings in bars. LT

Only funny if you read the entire post!

[glennbad]

Celluloid is an early (plastic type material ). it is made from celluose and nitrates. While in itself it is not explosive it is as mentioned quite volatile and flammable. Nitrates as you may know were what was the primary ingredient in the recent explosion in Lebanon. Also it was a primary ingredient in the Okla school bombing. Manure is a form of nitrate. celluose is part of a plant and when combined to make Celluloid the result is a truly enigmatic substance. I once did a magazine article on celluloid. I called it celluloid thou art a woman. The reason I called it that was because it is a substance that may for any reason change its nature . it is both alluring dangerous and unpredictible. Why would anyone want to use such a material for knives the reason is easy it is beautiful it can be in any color and translucent like a gem.( Especially in the last century when modern pastics were unknown).It draws you to it with its beauty. It is like walking into a bar and seeing a beautiful woman who is the consort of the 300 lb bouncer yet you still make a pass at her. The attraction is worth the risk. So that is one side of the comparison. However when the perverbial honeymoon is over you have the down side. Celluloid ( especially early cell ) when manufactured often was not given a correct final rinse. This often acted as a time bomb as the chemical left on top aged. Much again like the opposite sex anything . (to hot, to cold , to light, to dark, you name it can cause it to deteriate and or burst into flame. The worst thing you can do is store it in a closed area (like a box or drawer) This material for any of the above and several other reasons gives off acetyline gas. In a closed area this not only increases the destruction ( like a cancer) on the celluloid but also rusts any exposed metal like a blade. Did you ever see a knife with the top half the blade rusted that was the exposed part when the knife was stored with a gassing cell. it not only destroys itself but all around it ( sound familiar again the reason for my title of the article). Celluloid also may never go bad and last forever. it all depends on its mood and possibly the time of month ( that part is a joke ) .
Some of the old timers from the factorys in Walden would tell me of a great joke the cutlers would pull on new guys when they went to work. They would not explain the propertys of celluloid and it was considered great fun to watch as the newby cutting cell for handles to fast and it would burst into flame in the guys hands. If it was me I would not have found it humorous. All the factorys stored cell outside the factory in separate small buildings ( the cell shed) These buildings had metal hinged roofs so that the wind could blow through dispersing the gas given off. Still the main cause of fires in all these factorys began in the cell sheds. I love celluloid I also have taken some severe beatings in bars. LT

Always good to hear from you Rich!

[kootenay joe]

I had a yellow handled Eye Brand Stockman that was of relatively recent vintage (1980's-'90's) and it suddenly outgassed leaving the handles as but a few lumps of yellow. There are many yellow handled Eye Brand knives. I do not know if all are celluloid. My assumption had been that they were Delrin, a totally stable plastic in wide use for knife handles since 1960.
Why Eye Brand would have used celluloid in the 1980's or '90's is beyond me. It came as a complete surprise.
kj

[cody6268]

I had a yellow handled Eye Brand Stockman that was of relatively recent vintage (1980's-'90's) and it suddenly outgassed leaving the handles as but a few lumps of yellow. There are many yellow handled Eye Brand knives. I do not know if all are celluloid. My assumption had been that they were Delrin, a totally stable plastic in wide use for knife handles since 1960.
Why Eye Brand would have used celluloid in the 1980's or '90's is beyond me. It came as a complete surprise.
kj

Someone told me that even the current production composition handled Eye Brand Sodbusters were celluloid, and that really, they should be avoided.

[98src]

It would seem that some celluloid materials are stable. A few that come to mind are the PyRemite used on vintage ( pre 1940 ) Remingtons, and water fall and imitation onyx as used on the Tested era and earlier CASE s. At least I have never seen any problems with the several that I has owned over the years.

[Paladin]

It would seem that some celluloid materials are stable. A few that come to mind are the PyRemite used on vintage ( pre 1940 ) Remingtons, and water fall and imitation onyx as used on the Tested era and earlier CASE s. At least I have never seen any problems with the several that I has owned over the years.

I had a waterfall handle go bad on a Schrade Cut Co. stockman.

Ray

[RobesonsRme.com]

My Dad was an electrician and had a yellow celluloid handled screwdriver burst into flame when he crossed poles in a junction box. It didn't just burn on its surface, but boiled out from its center, that was in contact with the metal shaft.

Dennis Ellingson published a scholarly article about celluloid in The OKCA Newsletter some years ago. I suspect it is linked in one or more of the AAPK topics named above.

Charlie

[Mumbleypeg]

My Dad was an electrician and had a yellow celluloid handled screwdriver burst into flame when he crossed poles in a junction box. It didn't just burn on its surface, but boiled out from its center, that was in contact with the metal shaft.

Dennis Ellingson published a scholarly article about celluloid in The OKCA Newsletter some years ago. I suspect it is linked in one or more of the AAPK topics named above.

Charlie

There is a link to that article in one or more of those older posts.

Ray I don’t believe (in my experience anyway) the celluloid colors alone are a good indicator. Waterfall stability seems to vary from one knife company to another. I think it has more to do with the source manufacturer of the celluloid material. I am not talking about the maker of the knife, but rather the supplier of the celluloid itself. Within a supplier’s product line there may have been some colors more prone to failure than others.

I’m no expert by any means, just an observer over many years. My observations are anecdotal at best, but it seems to me whoever supplied celluloid to Remington had a good handle (no pun intended) on the process. As mentioned above some colors used by Case seem stable, most notably the imitation onyx, candy stripe and Christmas tree. But the old yellow-with-white-liner and goldstone Case used is notoriously bad. Makes me curious if those were all from the same supplier or different suppliers.

Another anecdotal observation is that items made from celluloid, or containing parts made from it, that are used regularly and not stored in a confined space are not prone to disintegration. Pocket knives carried and used regularly. Old mantle clocks. Hairbrush and comb sets. Maybe those items that have self-destructed have been disposed of so I just don’t see them.
Ken

[LongBlade]

Ray I don’t believe (in my experience anyway) the celluloid colors alone are a good indicator. Waterfall stability seems to vary from one knife company to another. I think it has more to do with the source manufacturer of the celluloid material. I am not talking about the maker of the knife, but rather the supplier of the celluloid itself. Within a supplier’s product line there may have been some colors more prone to failure than others.

I’m no expert by any means, just an observer over many years. My observations are anecdotal at best, but it seems to me whoever supplied celluloid to Remington had a good handle (no pun intended) on the process. As mentioned above some colors used by Case seem stable, most notably the imitation onyx, candy stripe and Christmas tree. But the old yellow-with-white-liner and goldstone Case used is notoriously bad. Makes me curious if those were all from the same supplier or different suppliers.

Another anecdotal observation is that items made from celluloid, or containing parts made from it, that are used regularly and not stored in a confined space are not prone to disintegration. Pocket knives carried and used regularly. Old mantle clocks. Hairbrush and comb sets. Maybe those items that have self-destructed have been disposed of so I just don’t see them.
Ken

Ken - Just as an aside, and not sure if indeed it is true, but in the past it has been hypothesized that dark celluloid may have binders that stabilize the celluloid and may prevent the formation of nitric acid which is what destroys the knife.... In many cases I wonder if the darker handles were celluloid or bakelite - the latter may be more stable but does dry over time and cracks and if not stored properly - but I have never seen any knife claimed to be bakelite... I am not speaking to the Black Composition handles of LF&C as they are a different beast - and pretty stable...

[Nephilim]

I've looked into the issue a bit myself, because of a circa 1949 Waltco butterfly knife of mine with celluloid scales. Found an old scientific article about celluloid, with a view towards the preservation of cultural artifacts. https://cool.culturalheritage.org/jaic/ ... 2-003.html Interestingly, this article recommends NOT exposing celluloid to alkaline substances, contrary to some advice I've seen recommending wiping it down with a baking soda solution. Also, careful about sunlight and other UV exposure.

[LongBlade]

I've looked into the issue a bit myself, because of a circa 1949 Waltco butterfly knife of mine with celluloid scales. Found an old scientific article about celluloid, with a view towards the preservation of cultural artifacts. https://cool.culturalheritage.org/jaic/ ... 2-003.html Interestingly, this article recommends NOT exposing celluloid to alkaline substances, contrary to some advice I've seen recommending wiping it down with a baking soda solution. Also, careful about sunlight and other UV exposure.

Thanks for posting that link Nephilim ... I agree that alkaline substances will not stop the outgassing of acid without destroying the handles or possibly enhancing the reaction already occurring by affecting the stability of the chemicals - once the process starts it will continue until it runs its course ending in a bad handles and corroded blades .... I guess the question is as you exactly stated - how to keep celluloid knives in good condition without outgassing... Not sure anybody has a definitive answer other than stable cool temps and no direct sunlight /UV light.. One thing I think may be worth trying is to keep them on anti-tarnish silverware cloth - or using anti-tarnish strips... These supposedly absorb nitric acid and gasses associated with tarnish... I use it with all my stored knives but the very few celluloid knives I own I keep in open cigar boxes lined with anti-tarnish cloth in the dark where temps do not fluctuate very much.. but I also think and a few folks have said before there may be something to handling and carrying those knives that may also prevent the process from happening (but that depends on your inclination in regards to using vs collecting old knives) - on that note I have an old Empire-made Shapleigh Cattle knife with celluloid in a faux wood grain design which at one time was the favorite carry of a gentleman for 18 years - blades have a nice patina and celluloid seems fine.... but to me that knife is in great condition and I rather save it for posterity than use it (and so it is stored as I described above) - but after all those years of carrying it in heat and cold it still looks fine... outgassing is somewhat puzzling for sure...