Modern Hartkopf quality?

[sidpost]

I'm curious about the general thoughts of modern Hartkopf knives? Are they good quality? Which cutler/shop really makes them? The best I can tell from the blade steel is that it is the same as Victorinox and is a 420 variety stainless. My happiness with Victorinox blades is mixed at best as I find them soft and dull too easily.

For a knife that will see real use, not abuse, camping, hiking, etc will this brand and model be a good choice? I prefer a ~3" stainless knife and want the general 'scout' or Victorinox working qualities with better construction and fewer extraneous features that will ride in a pocket better.

TIA,
Sid

[kootenay joe]

I do not know the answer to your question. In general German knives are relatively expensive for what you get. I can tell you that Rough Rider knives made in China always arrive sharp and hold the sharpness very well. The knives are strong, no looseness and will serve you well for decades. And, most are under $20.
I would take a Rough Rider over a Hartkopf any day.
kj

[EyeBJoe]

Hartkopf makes a good product. I have carried Hartkopf knives as my daily go to EDC's for many years. I have always found them to be of good quality and they take a good edge with the sharpener. As Roland mentions, they are a bit pricey but the workmanship and quality has always been there in my opinion. The one I currently carry has a bottle opener included and serves me well when a nice bottle of merlot becomes available.


Joe D.

[sidpost]

I do not know the answer to your question. In general German knives are relatively expensive for what you get. I can tell you that Rough Rider knives made in China always arrive sharp and hold the sharpness very well. The knives are strong, no looseness and will serve you well for decades. And, most are under $20.
I would take a Rough Rider over a Hartkopf any day.
kj

CHINA is capable of making a superior knife, however, I'm not a fan of the general cheap junk that arrives of all types and varieties. While I do own some non-slip joint Chinese knives and find them to be good values, I just can't bring myself to buy anymore slip-joints from China having had some bad experiences. Sure, I can buy 3 to 5 Chinese slip joints for the price of one GERMAN or AMERICAN slip-joint but, I don't really want to support substandard production. I never bought PAKISTANI knives either.

Separate from all of this is the pride of ownership and supporting hand-crafted products. For one special knife, no way would I consider a cheap CHINESE model since to me, personally, there is no PRIDE of ownership as it is just a commodity like a piece of lumber or a random bag.

[kootenay joe]

Yes i agree that you should buy what you want. To be clear, the Rough Rider traditional style folding knives are not substandard in any way. I have been using various pattern RR knives since 2007 and i am continually impressed. They hold up as well as USA or German made knives and have equal or better edge holding.
I am not suggesting that you should buy a Rough Rider, i just want to be sure that those who read this thread get accurate information.
kj

[sidpost]

THANKS!

It sounds like the Rough Riders might be worth a try if they are in fact that good. How is the steel quality in the blades? Does it hold an edge well? Are the edges thin enough to be 'slicey' for soft things like ripe tomatoes?

[Eye Brand Man]

Yes i agree that you should buy what you want. To be clear, the Rough Rider traditional style folding knives are not substandard in any way. I have been using various pattern RR knives since 2007 and i am continually impressed. They hold up as well as USA or German made knives and have equal or better edge holding.
I am not suggesting that you should buy a Rough Rider, i just want to be sure that those who read this thread get accurate information.
kj

They hold up as well as USA or German made knives and have equal or better edge holding.


What are you basing this on? So your saying a RR will last as long as a GEC or Case? I have handled a few RR, and I will admit the fit and finish is impressive for the price. But I don't think the quality of materials compares to GEC or Case. Nor do I believe a RR will last long enough to be handed down through generations. JMHO

[kootenay joe]

I have used Case, Schrade, Eye Brand knives and the RR knives i have used arrive sharper and edge hold better than Case Tru-Sharp. I have fully field dressed whitetail deer with a Rough Rider knife and it still shaved arm hair after i finished. Even my Jerry Halfrich knife lost more of it's edge dressing out a deer.
I agree it does not make sense. The first time i used an RR to field dress i expected to switch to another knife when part way through. I was not expecting it to be sharp & slick for the entire job. ("slick" as in glides through the tissue with almost no pressure applied)
I have had a few tactical style RR's and they are not the same. They are o.k., but nothing special. The RR fixed blades also are o.k. and that's it.
It is only the traditional style RR's that i have had such positive experience with. I don't know if all of the traditional style RR's are made in the same factory or if they have more than one 'line', not all of them being in the top tier. But i have tried many RR patterns from many different series and never once been disappointed. Actually i was pleased & impressed with every one of them.
If you see a new RR in the "Trapper Series", buy it and try it out. You will be amazed. It's called "Trapper Series" but not all are Trappers, bone handles, come in a tin with a picture of old time Western scene on the top. These are from about 5-6 years ago. Occasionally you will still find one.
kj
p.s. there are posts in AAPK by others also stating that RR blades cut better and edge hold better than Case.

[kootenay joe]

I did not intend to hijack this thread. I hope anyone who has used a recent Hartkopf knife will post about it here. It is a brand that does not get mentioned here so i suspect that very few members own one of these knives.
kj

[Mumbleypeg]

Where is jerryd's derailment picture?

Ken

[sidpost]

I have used Case, Schrade, Eye Brand knives and the RR knives i have used arrive sharper and edge hold better than Case Tru-Sharp. I have fully field dressed whitetail deer with a Rough Rider knife and it still shaved arm hair after i finished. Even my Jerry Halfrich knife lost more of it's edge dressing out a deer.
I agree it does not make sense. The first time i used an RR to field dress i expected to switch to another knife when part way through. I was not expecting it to be sharp & slick for the entire job. ("slick" as in glides through the tissue with almost no pressure applied)
I have had a few tactical style RR's and they are not the same. They are o.k., but nothing special. The RR fixed blades also are o.k. and that's it.
It is only the traditional style RR's that i have had such positive experience with. I don't know if all of the traditional style RR's are made in the same factory or if they have more than one 'line', not all of them being in the top tier. But i have tried many RR patterns from many different series and never once been disappointed. Actually i was pleased & impressed with every one of them.
If you see a new RR in the "Trapper Series", buy it and try it out. You will be amazed. It's called "Trapper Series" but not all are Trappers, bone handles, come in a tin with a picture of old time Western scene on the top. These are from about 5-6 years ago. Occasionally you will still find one.
kj
p.s. there are posts in AAPK by others also stating that RR blades cut better and edge hold better than Case.

Thank you for the detailed post.

I have tried a few traditionals with the various stainless blades and found them to be lacking in general, with a few better and a few worse than average.

Part of what attracts me to the European/German knives are C70/C75 carbon and various stainless grade blades that work so well in traditional pocket knives. From personal experience, heat treat makes a huge difference even when two blades come off the same line and go to a different heat treater. I have a 1095 Newt Livesay "Wicked" fixed blade that has ridden in the bottom of a toolbox in the rain, lost in a random bag, and generally treated very poorly that has proven to be more "rust-resistant" than many stainless knives and holds an edge that is hard to match with most knives available commercially (i.e. it isn't CPM 3V or some 'super steel').

I really want to like Sheffield slip-joints but, wading through the garbage, foreign imports, misleading marketing, etc. makes this a very challenging exercise. Then, finding an older knife, they are either priced out of practical reach (financially) or have some significant defects.

Robert Klaas, PUMA, and Boker all produce some good knives at various price points and I have no concerns with forced labor, child labor, questionable business practices, fraudulent materials, etc. Sure, I'm paying 2 or 3 times the price of a Rough Rider but, I have something to proud of. Now if I were buying a bunch of knives where $20~$40 savings a knife add up, I might consider a different approach. However, for a small number, the cost savings is not significant and is offset with no concerns about receiving a substandard product.

Case in point, $30 for an older Robert Klaas Canoe that is at worst VERY LIGHTLY pocket worn. For a few dollars more, my Canoe is something I can feel good about owning and I will have something pass on to my heirs. A $20 Rough Rider won't have the pride of ownership and likely won't survive for my heirs to inherit.

[sidpost]

I did not intend to hijack this thread. I hope anyone who has used a recent Hartkopf knife will post about it here. It is a brand that does not get mentioned here so i suspect that very few members own one of these knives.
kj

Hartkopf is one of the German brands with basically no retail market penetration in the USA. Add a relatively high price and it is unlikely to be found locally (in the USA) Had I not lived in Germany for a decent period, I probably would not have looked at them searching for a Linder Dagger or Boot knife. Even with the massive marketing PUMA did, how many of us bought one of their fixed blades or even a more modestly priced lockback?

Sadly, that means Hartkopf like several other German brands are virtually unknown in the USA.

[Cletus Awreetus]

I know nothing about the newer Hartkopf stuff but I have an older stag jack that is an absolute favorite in my collection. It's an extremely well made and beautiful knife.

[Quick Steel]

Information.

The current issue of Knife Magazine has an article by Bruce Voyles on Puma, e.g. it growth as a collectible.

[kootenay joe]

Quote Sid: "Case in point, $30 for an older Robert Klaas Canoe that is at worst VERY LIGHTLY pocket worn"
Klass/Kissing Crane knives have been made in China for at least the last 20 years and are good knives. I think the last German made ones were in early 1980's. The German laws around "Made in Germany" are very lax. Knife can be made in China using Chinese parts and then send it back to Germany for handles and it is "Made in Germany". Boker and others have complained about this for decades and it might even have been changed in last few years.
Klass/K.C. knives are now clearly marked "China". I think some of the last few years of German production actually involved knives from China.
There was a discussion about this in the Levine forum at BladeForums about 12 years ago with "Germania" a very scholarly collector in Germany.
kj

[sidpost]

Thanks! I may need to go to the Bladeforums archives and see what I can dig up. With the general German labor shortage thanks to low birthrates and an aging population, things like this don't surprise me. That's part of the reason I look for older knives.

On a related note, I keep searching eBay for an old Sheffield slip-joint and have tried Etsy a time or two. When the right flea market or online auction shows up, I'm hoping I can score an old Sheffield slip-joint before 'collectors' bid it up to BIG money. I would really like to own a piece of history from Sheffield in addition to old school Germany.

What the English did to their knife industry is really a national tragedy if you ask me. I don't think Germany is going down the same road as you can still get a good 'handmade' pocket knife, you just have to pay ~$300 or so generally and go to someone like Boker or Puma. It is getting harder to buy a sole German authorship pocket knife with their cutlers aging out and new apprentices being pulled away to other industries.

[knifeaholic]

Just curious, does anyone know what steel the Rough Riders use?

Also, why did they recently change the name from Rough Rider to Rough Ryder?

[dlr110]

From everything that I've read, Ryder was the original spelling and that SMKW wanted to return to it. Also they advertise 440 Stainless Steel.

[knifeaholic]

From everything that I've read, Ryder was the original spelling and that SMKW wanted to return to it. Also they advertise 440 Stainless Steel.

Thanks!

[rangerbluedog]

From the title of your original post "Modern Hartkopf Quality", I assume you are talking about Friedrich Hartkopf knives.
I find them to be well made, and I too love the bottle opener blade model they offer.
I do not know where or who makes them, but I can tell you the quality is about that of a modern production Boker. I think the steel on mine is 440C.
The modern Hartkopf knives carry the SOLINGEN tang stamp. The requirements for use of the Solingen name include that the knife must be made in Solingen. Even the China-sourced knives from Boker do not have that stamp. They are only marked GERMANY.
I hope this helps.

For discussion of the many historic HARTKOPF brands, including Hartkopf & Co., one of my favorites: check out this link.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=60054&p=701623

Here's the GOOGLE translated page of Friedrich Hartkopf company in Solingen:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search

Great quote from kootenay Joe:
"Anthony Carter lists 15 Solingen cutlery manufacturers named "Hartkopf".
"Hartkopf & Co." was founded in 1922 making it one of the more recent Hartkopf businesses. "The Devils" is their logo but it has never been registered.
If you have a Gebruder Hartkopf, or Fritz Hartkopf or Robert Hartkopf & Co., etc, these are not from the same manufacturer as Hartkopf & Co.
It can be rather confusing."

[rangerbluedog]

By the way, HARTKOPF translated into English is HARDHEAD...

Here are the requirements to use the name SOLINGEN:
§ 4 Conditions for the Use of the Mark
(1) The mark "Solingen" may only be used in business for cutting equipment, which
(a) was processed and finished in all major stages of manufacturing in the Solingen industrial area and
(b) conforms to the quality requirements mentioned in clause 4.
(2) The Solingen industrial area includes the area of the urban commune Solingen and the
area of the town Haan which is in the district of Mettmann.
(3) Major stages of manufacturing for cutting equipment according to clause 1 letter (a) are:
(a) manufacture:
􏰀 warm forging
􏰀 cold forging
􏰀 mechanical processing
􏰀 heat treatment
􏰀 surface, mechanical
􏰀 surface, galvanic/chemical
􏰀 finishing touch
(b) assembly:
􏰀 of synthetic handles
􏰀 of wooden handles
􏰀 of steel handles
􏰀 of cast handles
􏰀 of handles made from other materials
􏰀 of component halves and other component parts
(c) final assembly of instruments

The above is from this page:
https://www.germanysolingen.com/pdf/Reg ... data-1.pdf

Now how cool is that.

[philco]

Great post Blue !

[kootenay joe]

Thank you rbd for explaining the meaning of "Solingen" vs the lack of much meaning when "Germany" is the marking.
I wonder if "Solingen Steel" means anything ? If a company in China use Chinese steel and marks the knife "Solingen Steel" is there an official authority in Germany that would send a 'cease & desist' order ?
As far as function goes, steel from both Germany & China can be made to be an excellent knife steel or a rather poor knife steel. You can only know how good the blade is by using it, which is the purpose of the O.P.: does anyone have experience using a modern Hartkopf knife ?
kj

[rangerbluedog]

I seem to remember "Solingen Steel" being used by a modern manufacturer. Apparently in an effort to get around the "Solingen" laws (not sure, just looked that way to me).
I don't think these knives were made in Solingen though.

[sidpost]

From the title of your original post "Modern Hartkopf Quality", I assume you are talking about Friedrich Hartkopf knives.
I find them to be well made, and I too love the bottle opener blade model they offer.
I do not know where or who makes them, but I can tell you the quality is about that of a modern production Boker. I think the steel on mine is 440C.
The modern Hartkopf knives carry the SOLINGEN tang stamp. The requirements for use of the Solingen name include that the knife must be made in Solingen. Even the China-sourced knives from Boker do not have that stamp. They are only marked GERMANY.
I hope this helps.
...

Thank you! Yes, I'm referring to current production models, not historic models of previous Hartkopf companies and owners.

Part of the confusion is regarding the actual steel type used. The European standards suggest 420 to some people, 440A to others, yet many still equate it to Victorinox. I am aware heat treat can vary greatly causing the same blade steel to be wonderful for one maker and terrible for another.

Even I had a Benchmade ATS-34 knife that rusted easily and was brittle. Obviously, it had a bad heat treat and missed the QC program reject pile.

With Hartkopf knives being hard to source and relatively expensive, I was hoping a few people either in North America or other parts of the world owned and used them and could provide some first-hand knowledge and could report the good, bad, or ugly about ownership and use.

I find my Victorinox knives lack a bit in real-world usage with poor edge holding and a bit of blade flex. Granted, I'm a bit of a hard user in a rural environment so, I may be a bit over critical. If the Hartkopf performs just like a Victorinox Spartan I want to save myself the trouble and expense of acquisition. My other option in a similar knife is offered by Robert Klass in the Canoe pattern. Ideally, I want something with a bit more primary blade size which the Hartkopf has but, I have zero personal experience with the brand.